Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 0:14pm
Subject: Re: The winds of change
--- In sahaja-yoga@y..., ANUJ SHARMA <anuj_iitb@y...> wrote:
AS: hi all, i am a person with scientific temper, and damn criticising nature. But yeah, I am sahaja yogi! and i am happier and prouder to be so. And I dont know if i am violating any code of conduct by expressing my views here. But alex - let me tell u that those points u have against or for SY are useless. Do u practise ur own SY? If yes, try to spreadthat. But what i feel is everyone has his own SY, even in present framework.
Only that not all ppl can recognise that. They run after things, and the structure of SY is just to keep things in "somewhat order" - there are no MBAs out there, so the order may not be appreciated as such. But its good enuff!!
U see its no pt criticising this or that bad thing, when there are so many good things around!! u've the right to choose what u pick. Finally u r ur own guru, ur spirit is only urs and God's. This shud help anyone lead a better life. btw, i wont like to get replies so done bother.. i wud delete without giving a look. as of now i'm leaving the list wish u all some brains!! Anuj
Alex: Thanks for your response - but I would question the indignant tone of your words. Also, I won't be denied the right of reply! I would invite you to rejoin the list if you've actually already quit. In any event I'll offer my observations on the nature of your response, for those members with brains enough (or not?) to have not also left this group.
I suppose I practice something, you may call it my own version of SY, but I doubt that many SYs would include me or what I practice in their SY. For the sake of this group I'll be brazen enough to say that I practice my own version of SY. I feel no compulsion to "spread" what I know, do, understand. I acknowledge significant personal benefit from learning and practising the SY method. Now I digest these benefits and make them my own.
Perhaps, if the SY method shines a light of truth into human consciousness, I choose now to wield that same light and turn it on the culture and organisation of SY (which beholds itself above such examination). It is to be expected that people in SY will react adversely to scrutiny, and typically that reaction is of indignance. The issues I raise are probably pertinent if they hit a nerve - they certainly hit a few nerves with SYs I know personally.
This discussion group offers great potential for SYs to address criticisms being directed at them - choosing to respond like an ostrich is nevertheless a response and delivers a strong message, perhaps that SYs don't have the detachment, understanding and maturity to respond with confidence to the issues being raised against them. I have no doubt that SYs are making a BIG mistake by not contributing meaningfully to the discussion.
I therefore question why, if you stand in the comfort and security of spiritual truth, you should react with indignance to the extent that you up-and-go after posting only a few ill-considered words, rather than providing some well considered and intelligent response for this group. You might do what I do and take a few days before responding, to avoid responding in reaction.
The choice is yours, but please don't dissappear just because you've been challanged. Many SYs won't participate in this group mainly because of the fear of being challenged. Face the fear and let's all learn something.
I would draw you attention back to the facts and charges 1-10 regarding SY in my first posting of 2 February 2001. Do you deny the accuracy of these statements? I know you can't deny them as they are all perfectly true. Therefore the issues I raise are not useless and cannot be dismissed by a few indignant words. I remain my own guru. Alex 2152 From: alex.green@a... Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 2:07pm Subject: Re: New webpages at www.sahaja-yoga.org
The "letter" strikes me as nothing but a propaganda bomb, the purpose of which has now been fulfilled by being posted on the anti-SY web pages.
Irrespective of who wrote it, it was definitely written/edited by an Indian and displays a lack of understanding of the subtleties of both the English language and the western mind. As a strategic device it is self defeating as it is so corny and ridden with SY clichés it says loud and clear between the lines "SY is completely the CULT we deny it is".
I don't know what they hope to achieve with this stuff! What a circus! If you want to experience life in a soap opera look no further than life in SY as illustrated by the letter in question. How could something claimed to be so "perfect" become so tainted? Whatever is taintable will inevitably become tainted. The solution? Remove what is taintable - the organisation, hierarchy, commerce and dogma - and see what's left. Moksha. Alex 2153 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 10:54pm Subject: FW: contradictions
-----Original Message----- From: Craig Williamson [mailto:craigw@m...] Sent: 25 February 2001 05:17 To: Simon Dicon Subject: contradictions
Hi Simon, I am still around, but I am no longer on the forum email list. I took a break from it and found that my mental health greatly improved when I was not reminded of SY on a daily basis. However, I recently passed my one year anniversary of being out of SY, and in honor of that great landmark I have written an impromptu list of contradictions in SY. I imagine if everyone else added their own favorite contradictions, there could be a fairly impressive list. I am not subscribed to the forum any more - if you don't mind, could you pop this on for me?
My thanks to everyone involved with maintaining this forum - it was instrumental in helping me see the fallacy of SY and how I had fooled myself. regards Craig
1) You are your own guru, but you are told to follow your leaders. 2) Mataji says that SY can cure all kinds of diseases, but SY's continue to get serious physical and mental illnesses which SY doesn't cure, and mataji herself also goes to various doctors. 3) SY is free and open to everyone, but notice that most of the SY's mataji surrounds herself with are either high-paid professionals or wealthy individuals. Very few SY's of modest means are among the chosen few who get to spend much time with her. If you doubt this, check it out for yourself. 4) The "experience" which is talked about in SY is said to be spontaneous, but if you ask most SY's they rarely experience it spontaneously. In fact, they must follow a formalized meditation routine, repeat mantras, use symbolic props and so forth - all to generate the "spontaneous" experience. 5) SY is a belief system, in spite of how it is presented otherwise. It is a religion with its own inherent beliefs, like other religions. 6) SY is said to unite the religions of the world, but it is predominently Hindu. 7) Mataji's family always gets to sit in the front row at the music programs, even though they are not SY's. SY's are told to forget about their attachments to their families and concentrate only on spirituality. Meanwhile, Mataji travels the world visiting her family and they get to sit up front with her while the SY's sit in the back and watch a video monitor. Why is she so attached to her family if they aren't SY's? As she said, SY is your family now. 8) Listen closely to Mataji's public programs on tape. She has been repeating the same lecture over and over and over for years. This is also true for many puja lectures. 9) Mataji claims to have been Jesus' mother in the past, as well as many other important figures. Yet, she offers very little specific information about the life of Jesus or anyone else. Why does she not set the record straight once and for all about Jesus and his life, what he really did, and so forth? 10) There is very little substantive information given to SY's about the subtle body. Mataji told SY's that she didn't write a book about it because then it would just be mental knowledge and of no use. In addition, she said that all SY's should become experts in the knowledge of "vibrations". Nonetheless, SY's are not experts, there is not a clear understanding of how to actually use "vibrations" to detect or treat serious diseases. SY's don't even know the basics about how chakras function. 11) SY is meant to unite humanity, but because it has set itself apart as a distinct religion it is adding to the division of humanity. By being separate it is divisive. It can only unite humanity if all humans join into it. 12) Mataji says she is God, and that God has no interest in money. Yet she has taken hundreds of thousands of unaccounted "dakshinat" over the years. She has never provided an accurate accounting of where all the collected money goes. 13) Mataji has said that SY is natural and spontaneous, and therefore she never needs to tell SY's what to do because they can feel what is good for themselves. Yet, she is continually telling SY's what to do and what to not do. 14) Mataji says she needs no comforts at all, yet she travels and lives in the lap of luxury. 15) In America all SY's were specifically encouraged to send a letter to their government officials (who had no idea who mataji is) which asked these officials to send mataji a birthday greeting. SY's were given an example of a letter to send out. Later, SY's and mataji proudly exclaimed about how many government officials recognized mataji and sent her birthday greetings. SY willingly participated in this sham. 16) Mataji has been sharply criticising America for 20 years for its social and ethical decline (calling it a "demonocracy"), but she does not mind her grandchildren attending expensive American colleges, and now she herself plans to live here for much of the year. 17) In Mataji's letters to the ex-SY website, she makes a number of errors in her comments about specific individuals involved. She says she is omniscient, but she makes errors. 18) When mataji makes errors she is still considered to be omniscient, because, being in charge of the universe as she is, when she makes errors she is doing it intentionally. That is her maya power, to trick humans. SY's believe this. 19) Mataji says you can't organize God, but she has created a huge organization in the name of God. 20) Mataji and SY's use some photographs which are considered "miraculous" yet are clearly known to be photographic flaws (such as a flashbulb causing a light, which is then said to be light emanting from one of her chakras). 21) Have you ever read her recent book? Some sections are clearly excerpts from lectures, which she has repeated many times. This book was supposed to give humanity an understanding of her vision. If you have read this book you will know that it clarifies very little. It is barely organized.
2156 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:09am Subject: FW: Why can't I own Canadians?
Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses > advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet
Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan. 2158 From: satyakikhoj@y... Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:49am Subject: on line meditation
okay, i had promised that i would concentrate purely on the scientific aspects but this one is too hilarious to pass. this is a pro sahaja site with a -twist- . Enjoy http://www.jaishrimataji.dk3.com
2159 From: satyakikhoj@y... Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 4:57am Subject: Re: on line meditation
also, do not forget to click to receive your virtual blessings online !!!
--- In sahaja-yoga@y..., satyakikhoj@y... wrote: okay, i had promised that i would concentrate purely on the > scientific aspects but this one is too hilarious to pass.
this is a pro sahaja site with a -twist- . Enjoy http://www.jaishrimataji.dk3.com
2160 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 10:17am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: on line meditation
It seems SY is its own satyre. Miguel de C.Henriques 2161 From: roger <roger@c...> Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 5:12pm Subject: [hinduismML] Hindu bibliography March update
the March update to the Hindu bibliography is now online at : http://www.cyber-ville.net/hindbib1.html enjoy your reading ! other informations available at : http://www.cyber-ville.net/English1.html subscribe/unsubscribe to our mailing lists at : http://www.cyber-ville.net/feedback.htm
2162 From: John glover <jglove7@h...> Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 7:40pm Subject: Re: [SY] Jasbir Singh
In the USA we would resolve this with a presidential committee that would pretend to be unbiased, but would in reality be biased and partisan. Everyday we see the lies and deceit of people in power - politicians, religious leaders - you name it.
It is disturbing that some (many?) SY's state that SM "is God". How do they know this? Those of us who have been "in SY" for over 2 decades never considered SM "God", but a spiritual teacher who gave us something we called "realization".
SOme believed that SM was "adi shakti", an incarnation of "God's power". Whatever we believe, NO SY who has been in the "inner circle" or has been a so-called leader can deny that the things SM has said have changed over the years.
Whether this is being "truthful" or not is apparently in the eye of the beholder, because some SY's defend conflicting statements as "Maya". Why is this okay in SY, but not in other meditation groups whom the SY's and SM vigorously attack?
How about all the people who were under the "protection" of SY and SM who now have illnesses (some fatal)including cancer. SY's claim this to be a "test" Someone is lying, or is there no "truth" in this "divine" realm? Ah, well, c'est la vie.
I'm going on with my life, and I hope SY's and ex SY's can agree to disagree. At the end of the day, SY may indeed be the greatest thing since the advent of Christ, or it may be the greatest fraud that fooled numerous sincere people, seekers of truth who gave their lives for SY, who put up with emotional and mental torture, who gave up their families and friends to "get their realization" or to "know God".
I desire with all my heart that their trials were not in vain. You ARE the sincere ones, and no one can fault you for voicing what you truly feel and believe. Love to each and everyone of you.
2164 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:28am Subject: Re: [SY] Sahaja Yoga concerns
I truly think it's neither the greatest happening since the advent of Christ neither the saddest deception of the millenium. It's part of the current GGB (Global Guru Business) and as such, part of a deception older than the millenium.
(By the way The Advent of Christ was only (universally) considered a great happening hundreds of years after his passing away.) On other hand, I have no doubt, most of SY members are sincere seekers and kind people. Some of them eventually realized they were fooling themselves and quitted. Some realized that miracle-worship oriented organizations are part and parcel of the current "new-age" spiritual materialism and quitted. Best, Miguel de Castro Henriques
2166 From: quasarx@u... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 3:17am Subject: respected sahaja yogis
I just read a letter of one of the few SYs: that Ive always respected & admired. i wish more would state their true feelings then fearing some monster doesnt mean u have 2 give up anythin but if u r one of these SYs which i, at least, respect loads u got more authority and a better representation than the foul-loud-mouthed punks we get in this forum
sad that morale seems low though i mean i been in SY a lil bit less then a decade but i think i gained from it i probably left at the right time. a lot of the quality & strengths I seem to have, I credit on my years on SY.
or could it be me, with such inspiration & desire 2 grow/know God transformed me independantly of SY? sure in the begginin i acquired bad stuff from SY: fanaticism, egotism, not fittin in society, judgemental, overly-repressed, paranoid superstitions.
but i had a mirror, ppl, that seemed 2 like me & tellin me how weird it looks if i carry on behavin in such a strange way. we have to respect every1, this world, we r not in a bubble. things i enjoy not in SY r things normal ppl do: travellin, dancin, having a girlfriend I chose myself, also sometimes having a drink - I never abuse alcohol so i am safe there.
i understand "moral" issues tho: alcoholism, promiscuity - I dont see them as wrong BUT whatever leads to ur unhappiness, pain, heartbreak IS wrong; so therefore i can c why these things r not very clever. there is so much i gathered from SY - on the good side. So much. Now would i have gathered from other organizations?
Music, world religion studies, indian phylosophy (and chinese - I Ching, Tao) and .. ok everyone seems to be dieing of cancer now / but my health did get better during the SY years. I still think about lil things like dont go too much on the Left/Right .. dont abuse the Liver and if u do: how to clear it out a bit. These lil things still seem 2 work.
I have had amazing experiences, like being in that heavenly realm, heaven as our minds put it / pure celestial bliss .. and ok maybe it was the mind that created it after all. but still very very nice, wonderful, pristine.
so like parents - that u get good things & bad things .. that is how i feel bout SY I didnt like the fear, the paranoia, the guilt, the lack of spontaneity of SY later on. Didnt like long drawn forced national pujas and meditations - like church, probably worse. International pujas were ok. Dont know why the primitiveness of Cabella tho. I always had to sneak in a hotel or the castle itself to get a proper hot shower :) I dun like cold river showers.
I am curious like most of us: what the outcome will be like? I am probably unbothered either way. It would be nice if SY turns out to be the key thing to save many ppl - cos there is much suffering out there. Suffering, injustice much worse then the usual nags from ex- SYs.
And if SY was 100% illusion, would it be interestin too? See? See how the power of the mind alone can create things, worlds, universes for better or for worse. So always somethin to gain or at least learn. Just be strong, be yourself If you are in SY - dont be so scared of it.
Cos working on an illusion-level inevitably it will grow more & more frightenin the more you fear it. It shud be ur friend not ur tyrant. its ur own projection u command it its what u make of it i even believe u can have absolute control of the goddess herself. once u cracked it - u can have it all. am I the only that thinks that way? ok g2g ~ Quasar ~ 2167 From: satyakikhoj@y... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 7:43am Subject: a brief history of time
I am sure some of us here have read Stephen Hawking's - A brief history of time. when scientists gave compelling proof of the "big- bang" theory, it went against the religious beliefs of many, and it was a direct contradiction to "genesis".
So, does it mean that it conclusively proves that there is no god? On the contrary, in stephen hawkings own words "it means that the creator of this world chose to set some rules and has followed them" which brings me to the question, if SM is indeed the creator or the primordial energy (meaning the initiator of the big bang) why did she choose to break the rules after such a long period of time with her "miracle" photographs? i am sure all of us who have been associated with sahaja at some point been made aware (sometimes not too subtly) about the "miracles" that SM has performed.
According to SM, the earthquake in gujrat was because the people there followed the teachings of false gurus. Since SM is supposedly "ADISHAKTI" ( i remeber a puja song jay jay he mahishasur mardini - meaning praise to the godess who killed mahishasur) why did she choose to punish the innocent victims or followers of the supposed demonic gurus rather than kill the demons themselves ?
All her previous incarnations seem to concentrate purely on busting the demons; why the sudden shift?Also this explanation does not seem so convincing when one sees (on tv) a child looking at a rubble with the knowledge that his mother is buried under the debris - false guru? the child does not even know what a guru is? mahamaya ? or we are too mental? am i catching on my agnya ? there was a strange case a few years back in india when apparently all statues of lord ganesha began to drink milk ! the phenomenon occoured for only one day although it was reproduced in various laboratories around the world just that day with various statues including one of mickey mouse.
Most scientists seem to converge upon capillary action though no one has come up with a comprehensive explanation. Not surprisngly though every single "guru" in the country (including a certain chandra swami who was in jail that time) took credit for invoking the gods blessing / wrath (depending on the case). SM expressed this as the manifestation of the paramchaitanya which heralds the begining of a new age (because people have started realizing the truth) and that satya-yuga is not far away. well just a few years later an estimated 20,000 people died in gujrat because they did NOT realize the truth. Are we missing a point here ? regards
satya ki khoj (a friend once told me this means the quest for truth)
2169 From: Erin_Salz@y... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 3:04am Subject: Positive points, negative points
I believe meditation can potentially help people with certain problems. Many people who join SY claim to have stopped using drugs, smoking and other such addictions. The real issue: is meditation being used to manipulate people into a cult? People who come to SY programs are made to feel obligated to Mataji for what they experience. People are told she is the source of this meditation and that you will not be able to experience this without her help (the collective, her photograph, etc.). If you believe this, you become hooked. Did you choose to believe this, or were you tricked into believing this?
I think everyone who has practiced SY can say something positive about the experience. However, that is not the point. No group could recruit people unless there was some sort of positive experience. The positive benefits attained through SY come with a large price tag. That price is that you surrender your life to Mataji. It seems that this is a pretty big price to pay for benefits that can be obtained by less costly methods.
SY IS expensive: You may not give all your money, but you surrender your mind, your heart, your time and your energy. You sacrifice friendships and family relationships at the altar of Mataji. How many dollars would you pay to have each year spent in Sahaja Yoga back? Erin 2171 From: John glover <jglove7@h...> Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 0:43pm Subject: Re: [SY] a brief history of time
Hi SKK, Yes, I too, assumed that the milk-"drinking" was no more than capillary action - perhaps the dry statues "soaked-up" the liquid. There's just so much rubbish that SY's accept. If one accepts that SM is/was "the one" then these statements must truly be tests to see whether SY's use their brains or are just fanatical twits.
Furthermore, an old SY friend from Birmingham, BK, once suggested to me that perhaps the "true one" is no longer in SM's body, but someone else is inside, and it is up to the SY's to determine this !!! - talk about a bloody test! Of course he was condemned as a blasphemer by some SY's who overheard our conversation.
I myself have had this thought on more than one occassion when totally strange statements were made by the same "one" who triggered great experiences in me many years ago.
Just like most of the logical minority ("thinking too much"?) we live a confusing life, torn between what we'd felt for many years, and what we see exposed today. "...you better close your eyes, .. aaaaand bow your head, .... and wait for the ricochet.." - DP C'est la vie, my friends.
2178 From: Erin_Salz@y... Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 4:56am Subject: Re: [SY] a brief history of time
--- In sahaja-yoga@y..., "John glover" <jglove7@h...> wrote:
Hi SKK, (re ganesha statues drinking milk)
Yes, I too, assumed that the milk-"drinking" was no more than capillary action - perhaps the dry statues "soaked-up" the liquid. There's just so much rubbish that SY's accept.
Hi John, I've got one for you: the eclipse phenomena. SY's believe pregnant women can pass along birth defects and insanity to their children if they are outside during an eclipse. I've seen SY's in a panic over this! Erin