Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 3:11am
ahem... 68 of us yakking it up these days, hard to get a word in edgewise... The fall leaves are "peaking" right about now where I live. I was walking in the woods, and a green oak leaf fell right in front of me. My first reaction was sadness. "Poor leaf's usefulness is at an end..."
...I remember after a puja in NJ, many moons ago, talking with one of the wise Indian SYs. He was saying that we need to be like the branches, not like the leaves, because the leaves will be discarded whereas the branches will continue.
It strikes me what a limited and joyless and ridiculous perspective that is. Change is constant. That is nature's only rule. Fall is like a celebration of change. The desire to be free from the fear of change (loss of childhood, inspiration, family, friends, planet, health, life, love, etc...) is the main reason I was "seeking" way back when I stumbled onto SY.
Seeking to be free of the fear of losing (or of never having had) a connection to "Life". To sit with any terror (i.e. change) and look it in the eye and smile, and breath in the green air and the feel the sun on my skin and look at another creature and.....reflect that feeling back at it all.
I think this is the feeling of believing that you are loved by Universe. My most profound revelations ever have been the feeling of being loved by Universe. (even in SY this was the most honest experience I had.) It is a very simple feeling. I think that it is simply to experience "Life". You don't have to earn it and there isn't one exclusive source for it.
And Universe loves the leaves as much as the branches, the compost as well as the lotus, and the sinners as much as the saints... Mataji was always deriding people for that expression, "I am afraid". I think fear is the reason she has many of her followers. SY then proceeds to nurture and encourage fear.
Fear is certainly justified. The unknown is terrifying. Fire and cliffs should be handled with caution. Fear is evolutionarily (and developmentally) necessary. So the hypocrisy swings both ways. On the one hand - why deride fear? - it has served us so well up till now. On the other hand, why encourage and nurture fear so that is grows way beyond any useful proportions?
So much of what sahaja yoga was to me (and I am willing to take responsibility for my own perceptions) seems so sterile and academic to me now. My desire for a connection to "Life" was always real and true, before, during and after.
Someone sent me some quotes from Mataji saying that she is like a mirror. That we shouldn't try to understand her, but to understand ourselves. I think that everything is like a mirror. We are all going to end. We will all lose each other.
Until then may I not squander more than is absolutely necessary. May I take as little as possible for granted. May I follow my inspiration rather that wallow in my fears. May I not try to influence or manipulate anyone else's tacit infrastructure of ideas and may I take full responsibility for my own. Starting now..... really.... Karl de Spaayuxsyotl
1765 From: Craig Williamson <craigw@m...> Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:42am Subject: Re: [SY] leaves
1766 From: Am. B. <tawtow@y...> Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:52am Subject: Re: [SY] Digest Number 223
Dera all! i'm so happy to see your messages here again. I'm not one of those who speaks, but I always read with attention your messages. Dear Craig, do you remember of me?! I left SY last year, but still I cannot say I'm really out of it. Two months ago I went to have dinner with my old collective an Shri Mataji in person.
Actually I wasn't sure it was a good idea to go, but I went. I must admit it was such a good experience. I never had the possibility in the past to stay with SM directly, and I was amazed. She is certainly a special person. I knew that after that dinner she spoke about me.
Apparently she said among other thinghs, that I'm ready to be a SY. Actually I really don't think I'm ready. I'm so confused. But I think that is important, for me to calm down now, to live in peace. The peace for me is not to feel guilty about doing or not doing certain things. I have to clear up my mind, and I need to make new experiences. I hope the Lord will understand what I need.
Today I went to the Mass, tomorrow I will go to a buddhist meditation workshop. I feel ok, I feel a desire of spirituality. Unfortunately this desire wasn't satisfied in SY. Anyway, I don't want to bother you with my boring stuff. I just want to thank you all for being here. Take care all of you. A. 1768 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 5:50am Subject: visit to the Royal Albert Hall
Hi again folks It looks like Summer recess is over. I thought I should report on my visit to the Royal Albert Hall a couple of weeks back (26 September) - the occasion of Mataji's approximately annual mass recruitment meeting in London.
My report on last year's (July 10 1999) meeting is at: http://members.tripod.com/toutsursahajayoga/origins.htm - basically my attempt to peacefully hand out information sheets was interrupted by threats from a group of Sahaja Yogis to smash my face in, so that I had to get police protection to hand out the remainder of my leaflets. While this bullying took place the rest of the Sahaja Yogis just looked the other way.
This year I must report that the Sahaja Yogis were much better behaved. I saw one of the Sahaj Warriors who bullied me last year. He said, "So you're handing out your leaflets again this time." I said, "Yes, are you going to get your three friends and threaten to smash my face in again?" He said, "Yes, I'll do it right away." He then marched off to find them.
Fortunately he must have been dissuaded by cooler and saner heads not to carry out his spontaneous desire, as he restricted himself to laughing at me from behind a glass door. Full marks to the UK collective for this improvement.
I was told that when potential recruits read the leaflets their faces dropped. I append this year's leaflet. All the best, Simon Dicon Sahaja Yoga: things to think about (see overleaf for further sources of information)
Like Scientology, Sahaja Yoga hides its true nature from newcomers who are not told about Mataji's claim to be the Supreme Goddess and Creator of the Universe, about the Sahaja Yoga system of arranged marriages and divorces, how children and toddlers are sent away to Sahaja Yoga schools in Italy and India, how Mataji has told some Sahaja Yogis to beat their wives, how Mataji has threatened those leaving Sahaja Yoga with incurable diseases, how Mataji declared that babies who cry before her are possessed by evil spirits, how Mataji has told Sahaja Yogis to form political parties and prophesied they will rule the world, how Sahaja Yoga breaks the law to spread its message and preserve funds, how Mataji has told Sahaja Yogis to lie in court and sign false affidavits, how Mataji annually extracts millions of pounds from her followers and has amassed a huge real estate portfolio - nor about the sexual abuse by leaders, in arranged marriages and in schools.
"In the initial stages (for, perhaps, the first year or so), Sahaja Yogis' lives may not be outwardly affected to any noticeable extent. As their commitment grows, however, they may find themselves becoming increasingly subject to the influence and wishes of Mataji, and increasingly cut off from former contacts. They may be separated from their partners and, perhaps, their children."
New Religious Movements: A Practical Introduction by Professor Eileen Barker of the University of London
"Dangers: Dependence on Mataji and her teaching, leading to an inability or unwillingness to act or think independently. Fear of demonic possession - fear of `losing vibrations', the result of disobeying teaching or missing out on activities. This may lead to obsessive behaviour centred around rituals and talismans (such as bits of Mataji's hair or the concoction poured on her feet during pujas [worship of Mataji]).
Estrangement from non-Sahaja Yoga spouses and children is common, often leading to family breakdown…. Followers fear dire consequences and incurable illnesses if they leave the movement or are expelled." From a 1993 information sheet issued by FAIR (Family, Action, Information, Rescue)
Internet Sahaja Yoga: Facts and Warnings from Ex-Members: www.sahaja-yoga.org Threats at last year's Albert Hall meeting: www.kheper.auz.com/topics/gurus/Sahaja-cult.htm The Origins of Sahaja Yoga: http://members.tripod.com/toutsursahajayoga/origins.htm The Sahaja Yoga discussion mailing list homepage: www.geocities.com/yogamail Contact ex-members of Sahaja Yoga by email at: contact_@i... Organisations Cult Information Centre, BCM Cults, London, WC1N 3XX Telephone: 01689 833800 INFORM at the London School of Economics, WC2A 2AE Telephone: 0207 955 7654 Books Sahaja Yoga by Dr Judith Coney (Curzon Press 1999) (The most comprehensive work on Sahaja Yoga by a neutral observer) The Shortest Journey by Philippa Pullar (Unwin Paperbacks 1984) (Much of the book concerns the author's involvement in Sahaja Yoga) Saddhus, Mystics and Doctors by Dr Sudhir Kakar (Unwin Paperbacks 1984) (Chapter 7 describes Dr Kakar's observations of Sahaja Yoga and mentions Mataji's involvement with Rajneesh/Osho) 1773 From: p39559@e... Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 5:09am Subject: Sahaja Yoga
Sahaja yoga is a state of being, as opposed to the collective grouping of people trying to attain and maintain that state. In that grouping are persons of all different states of mind, as with the general populace. One can only 'get away' from the chaos by witnessing it. Hence the fear and confusion.
The mind is sublimated by the action of the strengthend autonomous nervous system regulating the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, so we act, without fear, not react which comes from fear. We are evolving away from the need for fear, as people react less and less to the emotive factors which have brought us to this point in our evolution. So we have less and less selfish behaviour as people realize everything is 'taken care of'.
People's reactions to Sri mataji are the result of their inability to let go of their attachments, which ultimately create stress, however 'pleasurable'.
Relations and possessions can only be fully appreciated if their is no fear of their loss. So much destruction is taking place because people are just trying to take care of 'their own'. You are never out of Sahaja yoga so long as you are thoughtlessly aware. Being out of the collective environment may be the best place for you to maintain that state of being. You are all 'Divine' though maybe not in the popular interpretation of the word, but it is meant to be, and appreciated.
1774 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 7:22am Subject: RE: [SY] Sahaja Yoga
Welcome to the Sahaja Yoga mailing list.
Anon: Sahaja yoga is a state of being, as opposed to the collective > grouping of people trying to attain and maintain that state.
SD: Actually the same term applies to a state of being and to a number of religious sects that claim to offer a path to that state. One of those sects is the cult of Mataji which is the subject of this mailing list, although the state itself is also on-topic as Mataji offers access to it.
Anon: In that grouping are persons of all different states of mind, as with the general populace.
SD: However, if Mataji's claims are true, one might expect some differences such as the ability to differentiate identical envelopes containing either a picture of Mataji or a photo of Hitler. Would you like me to set up an opportunity for you and/or your fellow Sahaja Yogis to demonstrate this ability?
Anon: One can only 'get away' from the chaos by witnessing it. Hence the fear and confusion.
SD: ??? Can you elaborate?
Anon: The mind is sublimated by the action of the strengthend autonomous nervous system regulating the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, so we act, without fear, not react which comes from fear.
SD: Who is this 'we' who acts without fear? Surely you don't mean the members of Mataji's cult. Also I can't help feeling that your anonymity is an expression of fear. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anon: So we have less and less selfish behaviour as people > realize everything is 'taken care of'.
SD: I guess that doesn't apply to Mataji or she wouldn't immorally refuse to pay back loans, avoid tax and deceive Sahaja Yogis about her multi-million dollar profiteering.
Anon: People's reactions to Sri mataji are the result of their inability to let go of their attachments, which ultimately create stress, however 'pleasurable'.
SD: If Mataji hadn't stolen I wouldn't react. If Mataji hadn't lied I wouldn't react. Should we close our eyes to all lies and theft or only that committed by Mataji?
Anon: Relations and possessions can only be fully appreciated if their is no fear of their loss. So much destruction is taking place because people are just trying to take care of 'their own'.
SD: True, and much destruction takes place when people devote themselves to an ideal or a supreme leader like Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Mataji. Best wishes, Simon Dicon
1775 From: Andy Lesmana Sastrahadijaya <als@c...> Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 2:32pm Subject: RE: [SY] Sahaja Yoga
Dear Simon, I am NOT Sri Mataji's follower, but I do not "hate" her as well because I have no reasons whatsoever to do it at all. Even if she were DEVIL INCARNATE, I will not hate her! Do you really have any hard evidence that she has lied, deceived her followers about her multi-million dollar profiteering, refused to pay back loans, avoid tax, etc?
Please forgive my ignorance by asking you, "Why do you "hate" Sri Mataji so much?".
Thank you for your response! Best regards/Andy 1776 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:29pm Subject: RE: [SY] Sahaja Yoga
A: I am NOT Sri Mataji's follower,
SD: Good. What's your interest in Sahaja Yoga?
A: Please forgive my ignorance by asking you, "Why do you "hate" Sri Mataji so much?".
SD: I don't. Although that's not say that I condemn anybody else for hating her, especially if they'd had their family broken up by her, their children taken away, had their money stolen by her, etc.
Actually there are many people in that situation and I'm yet to hear of any of them who hate her. In fact many are still her devoted followers.
A: I have no reasons whatsoever to do it at all. Even if she were DEVIL INCARNATE, I will not hate her! I don't hate Hitler or Stalin either. Do you really have any hard evidence that she has lied,
SD: Have you read all of www.sahaja-yoga.org ? Have you read http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/gurus/Sahaja_peace_prize.html
Have you read http://members.tripod.com/toutsursahajayoga/origins.htm ? If you haven't, you should read them to inform yourself of some of the background of this discussion.
Mataji's lies are legion. Let's take a simple example, her claim to be the unique incarnation of the Adi Shakti - the Primordial Power that created the universe, the female aspect of God, for whom God the Father is merely a couch and without whom God the Father is merely a corpse.
Either this is true, she is lying or she is deluded/mad.
When I first came on this list I was willing to give equal weight to the possibility that she is deluded/mad. Since meeting with other ex- Sahaja Yogis on this list, this possibility seems very unlikely. A major reason for changing my view is her multi-million dollar profiteering which is discussed at length at: http://mitglied.tripod.de/Sahaja_Yoga_Facts/mneytxt.htm
I can't see how she can possibly 1. believe herself to be the Adi Shakti, 2. claim that she is not profiting from SYoga, AND 3. profit to the tune of millions of dollars per year unless she believes that such deceptive profiteering is perfectly OK for a Divine Incarnation. No, this is too far-fetched. Many of the gurus she condemns for playing exactly the same game. She's no different.
A: ... refused to pay back loans
SD: There are two examples in the testimonial section of www.sahaja- yoga.org - one even has documentary evidence attached. Documentary evidence for the other case also exists in hard copy form.
A: ..... avoid tax, etc?
SD: Well there is tax avoidance and there is tax evasion. I think only the latter is criminal. An example of her tax avoidance was that she purposefully spent at least 3 months of each year in India so she can fall under their FIRA tax remit rather than pay tax in Italy. Another example of tax avoidance that is practised widely in Sahaja Yoga is holding national funds as tax-free trusts. This way Sahaja Yogis can get tax relief on donations.
For example Vishwa Nirmala Dharma is set up as an educational trust in the US and its funds are used to buy thousands of dollars worth of flowers and many-thousand dollar presents for Mataji.
These national funds also pay for most of the expenses of pujas which means that more of the puja fee goes into Mataji's pocket. Thus money that should be going in tax toward health, education, poverty-relief, social services, etc is diverted into the coffers of a rich Indian woman who claims to be God. I didn't mention tax evasion, but it is highly unlikely that she is innocent.
I know for a fact that building materials for her Cambridgeshire mansion were delivered at night to avoid paying VAT. She also frequently asks Sahaja Yogis to transport items in their luggage to India for her so she can avoid paying duty. Then there is all the money for India Tours, pujas etc that goes direct into her bank accounts. Do you really think she pays tax on it?
Sahaja Yoga is always boasting that its financial matters are completely open. Why not produce one of Mataji's tax returns? From the perspective of a Sahaja Yogi such tax issues really don't matter. They don't see why Mataji should be subject to tax regulations - or any laws for that matter. After all, she is the 'Creator of Divine Law'.
I remember being told by a Sahaja Yogi - wide-eyed and full of wonder - that she had been shopping with Mataji when Mataji swapped the prices on two items and then paid for the one she had reduced. More serious cases are where Mataji has instructed Sahaja Yogis to issue false affadavits to the police or coached Sahaja Yogis to lie in court.
The same attitude also percolates down to Sahaja Yogis. They believe that their divine work is also above the law. An example would be the Sahaja Yogis who threatened to smash my face in outside the Albert Hall: http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/gurus/Sahaja-cult.htm
Another example I remember is some Sahaja Yogis stealing a rare flower from a garden to present to Mataji at the airport. The flower wilted on the way there.
Another example, although perhaps not illegal, was where a group of Sahaja Yogis got some money changed and the tiller accidentally gives them too much, they kept the money because they saw it as a gift from God/Mataji. Obviously if the tiller had given them too little, they would have taken a different stance.
Enough for now, we've been through this kind of stuff many times on this list. The Sahaja Yogis on this gave up trying to deny these things long ago. They would prefer us abandon reason and just 'know in our hearts' that Mataji is Divine. There's no argument with an irrational belief based on such religious faith if that's all it claims to be.
Mataji has claimed that Sahaja Yoga is scientific, thus I make my case based on that presumption ie that there are observable phenomena that canconceivably disconfirm the theory. Best, SD
1779 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:54am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Sahaja Yoga
Hello again Anonymous
SD: Another example of tax avoidance that is practised widely in Sahaja Yoga is holding national funds as tax-free trusts. This way Sahaja Yogis can get tax relief on donations. For example Vishwa Nirmala Dharma is set up as an educational trust in the US and its funds are used to buy thousands of dollars worth of flowers and many- thousand dollar presents for Mataji.
A: which are for the enjoyment of the givers.
SD: If Mataji didn't want them they wouldn't be given. She'd make sure that the thousands of dollars were channelled into something that she did want. This is what happened with present giving when Mataji took over the job of deciding what the many-thousand dollar presents to her should be. Even if they were 'for the enjoyment of the givers' as you claim, it is difficult to see how this is a justified expenditure for a supposedly educational tax-exempt trust.
SD :These national funds also pay for most of the expenses of pujas which means that more of the puja fee goes into Mataji's pocket. Thus money that should be going in tax toward health, education, poverty- relief, social services, only a small portion of it ever gets there
SD: Recently Sahaja Yoga funds were used to buy a castle in France in her husband's name. Have you seen his will? Perhaps, given Sahaja Yoga's claim to transparent finances and the huge amount of money and property in Mataji's name and that of her husband, these will could be made public to reassure doubters.
I'll admit that I don't know what Mataji will do with her ill-gotten gains when she dies. I don't know if she'll leave it to her family, leave it to Sahaja Yoga, or whatever. However it is decidedly odd that she claims to not even touch collective funds while they are being channelled into bank accounts and properties under her name and that of her husband. Why isn't she open about it?
If the money is for Sahaja Yoga then why not have it going into tax- exempt trusts like the national funds? Either she is evading tax illegally or she is paying tax that could be avoided by not using her personal accounts and her name (and that of her husband) on the deeds to properties. C'mon, you must admit, it smells decidedly fishy.
I remember when a guy from Australia came over to build Mataji's mansion at Shudy Camps he got his wife to claim abandoned widow's allowance. Most of those working at Shudy Camps were illegally claiming unemployment benefit while working to 'rennovate' a house on which Mataji made a £700,000 profit.
Before that those working on Mataji's private house in Knightsbridge (sold for a similarly large profit) were also claiming unemployment benefit and housing benefit. This money is supposed to be used to support unemployed people who are looking for work, not cult members who are working to enrich their gurus and indulge their taste for tacky decor. Sahaja Yogis also benefit from public health services in many countries when they have children or Sahaj methods fail to cure their illnesses.
They also benefit from public education etc. On the one hand Sahaja Yogis are happy to benefit from government expenditure yet on the other they are willing to justify Mataji and Sahaja Yoga's tax avoidance and tax evasion.
Mataji puts herself and her cult above the law and even instructs her followers to break the law and pervert the course of justice. Little wonder that her followers take it upon themselves to break the law in her service. True, this says little about the state of Sahaja Yoga, apart from its inability to protect people against the excesses of cult membership.
Best wishes, SD
1780 From: Lumi S Sammallahti <lsammall@c...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:30am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Sahaja Yoga
A : I see no deceiption or profiteering, only a large cuboid 'castle' with four walls with five floors, and other places where YOGIS are free to go and enjoy each others company.
L: Last time I heard about the large cuboid castle in Cabella, yogis were NOT free to go there. Maybe that rule has changed now? L
1781 From: Lumi S Sammallahti <lsammall@c...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:39am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Sahaja Yoga
SD: For example Vishwa Nirmala Dharma is set up as an educational trust in the US and its funds are used to buy thousands of dollars worth of flowers and many-thousand dollar presents for Mataji.
A: which are for the enjoyment of the givers.
L: Mataji also decides how much money each country has to give for her present. Well, I did not see that much enjoyment when unemployed people and students were asked to give lots of money, although they were told that it is a great honour. L
1782 From: p39559@e... Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:40am Subject: Re: Sahaja Yoga
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Simon Dicon Montford" <sdm@e...> wrote:
SD: ... its funds are used to buy thousands of dollars worth of flowers and many-thousand dollar presents for Mataji.
A.which are for the enjoyment of the givers.
SD: If the money is for Sahaja Yoga then why not have it going into tax-exempt trusts like the national funds?
A : because there have been cases of individuals tampering with those funds, to the deyrement of the collective.
A : All you are doing is perpetuating the discord which already exists in society. Your efforts will as much contribute to people avoiding the collective as it will push them toward the state of sahaja yoga, which comes when all avenues have proven as much satisfaction as disappointment. The benefit of the collective environment is twofold: the meditation is deeper with peole who are actually in meditation, collectively, & and it gives the individual a controlled environment to find the detatchment required to just 'be'. Your issues with sri mataji will always be subjective and liable to fault because of your mental attitude which is conditioned by social 'norms'.
Most YOGIS will not pursue this debate as it can appear fruitless and detrimental to the perpetuation of Sahaja knowledge, but it can work against you as more people see the position you have adopted. Sahaja Yoga can occur in the individual at any point in time without them having heard of Sri mataji, but recognition of the fact that it is a process resulting from a maternal energy within the individual and total subjection to that process is needed for it to come to true fruition. This is sri Mataaji's endeavour.
Until human beings realize that this universe is all designed to take care of us and our evolution, like a good mother, governed by fixed laws which are being ignored remaining attached to selfish interests born of fear, they will be the source of their own demise. sacrifices have to be made, but not to one's integrity, which only somebody who knows themselves, not in the sense of the limited 'I am' but as something infinately greater than can be mentally percieved, can determine. You cannot know what I know, because you don't want to. 1784 From: p39559@e... Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:12am Subject: Re: Sahaja Yoga
--- In email@example.com, Lumi S Sammallahti <lsammall@c...> wrote: SD: Mataji also decides how much money each country has to give for her present.
A. no she doesn't, she suggests. What you give does not dtermine the benefit you will recieve from the practice of sahaja Yoga, but it does dtermine the integrity of the collective.
L : Well, I did not see that much enjoyment when unemployedpeople and students were asked to give lots of money, although they were told that it is a great honour.
A. asked to give/told that was what was required. If it is difficult then the person should endeavour to make society a place in which they can function creatively and money is not such a criteria. The collective endeavour has to function WITHIN society, which requires money as it stands today. Your freedom is still intact. P.S. are you related to my good friend Lars? L
1785 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 5:12am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Sahaja Yoga
L: Mataji also decides how much money each country has to give for her present.
A. no she doesn't, she suggests.
SD: Mataji's demands and orders are alway euphamistically known as 'advice' or 'suggestions' in SYoga. Advice from somebody claiming to be God is never just advice, especially when she warns of dire consequences to those who refuse her. Sometimes her 'advice' is delivered screaming at the top of her voice.
Here's an example of Mataji offering 'suggestions' on the topic of donations in New Delhi in 9 February 1983:
"Now that is why I said today I want to talk to the Sahaja Yogis of Delhi. I was ashamed absolutely to hear thet the Sahaja Yogis here cannot even give 18 rupees per month! ... Those who cannot afford, it is all right, those who are retired, it is all right, children is all right. But you cannot even give 18 rupees per month. It is not even 18, less than that. I don't know, this is the minimum you can pay. We have to run an ashram, we have to run these things, you want to have a place where to go.... Coming to Delhi means I have to shell out my own money, every time. Those who have not paid the money, please pay, otherwise I will not come to Delhi." (Nirmala Yoga, 1985, No. 20, p 22-23)
A: What you give does not dtermine the benefit you will recieve from the practice of sahaja Yoga, but it does dtermine the integrity of the collective.
SD: How does buying Mataji ivory statues, crystal swans and gold crowns determine the integrity of the collective?
A. asked to give/told that was what was required. If it is difficult then the person should endeavour to make society a place in which they can function creatively and money is not such a criteria. The collective endeavour has to function WITHIN society, which requires money as it stands today.
SD: It doesn't require Mataji to build up a huge real estate portfolio. Did you know at one ashram in the US Mataji made the SYogis pay 250% the market rate for living there. This is profiteering plain and simple.
A: Your freedom is still intact.
SD: Sahaja Yogis' freedom to disobey Mataji is severely limited by their belief that she is God and her claim that they should not say 'No' to her but should be obedient for their own good. Mataji's threat of incurable diseases to those leaving Sahaja Yoga limits their freedom to go. If you displease Mataji she may order your spouse to divorce you, order that your children are sent away or order that you are shunned by the whole collective. What kind of freedom is this? Think about it. SD
1786 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 5:12am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Sahaja Yoga
A.I see no deceiption or profiteering, only a large cuboid 'castle'
SD: The palace was bought in part with the money that Mataji stole from José Etcheparaborda. If you haven't done so, I suggest you go to www.sahaja-yoga.org and read his testimonial entitled 'Expensive Therapy'.
1787 From: Andy Lesmana Sastrahadijaya <als@c...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 5:55am Subject: RE: [SY] Sahaja Yoga
Thank you for your detailed explanation. You wrote, "What is your interest in Sahaya Yoga". Well, I used to be curious about Sahaya Yoga because a good friend of mine who is a devoted Sahaya Yogi in Jakarta where I live tell many good things about Sri Mataji and her wonderful teaching.
He assured me that Sahaya Yoga is the only sect that did not extort money from the followers. Wonderful things for free! Who is not interested? :-) I "investigated" the activities of these devoted followers of Sri Mataji. And it was confirmed that they work wonders. They held seminars in expensive hotels without taking any money from the attendants.
At first, I thought they were just some idiotic "idealists" who throw away their own money for giving away their "divine" teaching for free wihtout any strings attached. But, I do not think that they are crazy. Deluded? Maybe! Then, I tried to find what "Sahaja Yoga" is in the internet and find your interesting m-list.
After reading their books and reading what you wrote at your website, I decide that Sahaja Yoga is not the path for me. That is all.
1790 From: Simon Dicon Montford <sdm@e...> Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:13am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Sahaja Yoga
SD: Recently Sahaja Yoga funds were used to buy a castle in France in her husband's name. Have you seen his will?
A.niether have you
SD: No, that's why I wrote: I'll admit that I don't know what Mataji will do with her ill-gotten gains when she dies. I don't know if she'll leave it to her family, leave it to Sahaja Yoga, or whatever. However it is decidedly odd that she claims to not even touch collective funds while they are beingchannelled into bank accounts and properties under her name and that of her husband. Why isn't she open about it? If the money is for Sahaja Yoga then why not have it going into tax-exempt trusts like the national funds?
A.because there have been cases of individuals tampering with those > funds, to the deyrement of the collective.
SD: Many organisations have a system where more than one signature from a group of people is needed to withdraw funds. There is no reason why this couldn't be done in SYoga unless Mataji really has so very little faith in the people she puts in charge of leading Sahaja Yoga, arranging marriages and informing her on who should be shunned by the collective.
A. already covered by the state of being V.S. collective grouping statement.
SD: Mataji puts herself and her cult above the law and even > > instructs her followers to break the law and pervert the course of justice. Little wonder that her followers take it upon themselves to break the law in her service.
A. All this was covered in my first letter.
SD: Covered in the sense of 'referred to', nothing more.
A: All you are doing is > perpetuating the discord which already exists in society.
SD: Does that go for all people who expose frauds or only those who expose Mataji?
A: Your issues with sri mataji will always be subjective and liable to fault because of your mental attitude which is conditioned by social 'norms'.
SD: You mean 'social norms' like honesty and being opposed to theft, lies, hypocrisy, tax evasion, abuse, etc? Are these values nothing more than conditioning? You really think it impossible that somebody could rationally evaluate these values? You seem to imply that there only two classes of human in this world: either a thoughtless Sahaja Yogi or an unthinking automaton conditioned by 'social norms'. What a bleak picture! I don't know which is worse.
Clearly Mataji isn't conditioned by these norms even though she preaches them. I remeber her preaching that even if you neighbour has lent you just a single pin, you should make the utmost effort to return it to them. Yet when she borrows hundreds of thousands of Swiss francs she feels no compulsion to pay it back - or even admit that she borrowed it in the first place.