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From Yahoo Conversational Archives

Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 8:43am

Subject: RE: [SY]

SD: It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Mataji's own bullying  behaviour might lead some SYogis to believe bullying is acceptable.

Y: How is is that this "bullying behaviour" dosen't influence the other sy leaders like Engelbert, wolfagang Gregoire, Philip,?

SD: Please note my use of the word 'some', I didn't say 'all'. I don't know any of these 4 well enough to comment. I don't even know who you mean by Philip. Incidentally, have any of these 4 ever  stood up against Mataji's bullying? If not, it would suggest that  they find her bullying acceptable.

If you had written this list 15 years ago you may well have included people like Gavin, Modi, Rustom and Warren yet none of them believe in Mataji now (with the possible exception of Warren).

I also know that some SYogis would have included Craig in their list and I also know that some, contrary to Thor's claims, would have included Pat.

Y: They are v well looked to by Shri Mataji,

SD: So were/are many of Sahaja Yoga's sexual abusers.

Y: and they are all wonderful gentle compassionate people.

SD: There are such people in many other false cults.

Y: Why is it that such leaders who are all strong, honest,  compassionate and highly intelligent people are so full of  dedication, love and > respect for Shri Mataji?.

SD: There are such people worshipping other false gurus.

Y: Do you think they know less of the "facts" than you Dicon?

SD: I'm sure that Gregoire probably knows much more of the dirt on SYoga, he probably just prefers to interpret it as maya or a test. The fact that I have left your cult doesn't make me a better person than those still in. I'm only out because I got involved in an unusual situation where the 'vibrations' and Mataji were demonstrated to be contradictory and unreliable. If it hadn't been for those unusual circumstances I may well have my head buried even deeper in the sand than you.

If Mataji hadn't treated Juan and his family so shamefully, they might also be in SYoga today. We might all be living in the same ashram laughing at those who are perturbed by maya like sexual abuse and multi-million dollar profiteering.

Y: Are they "burying their heads in the sand?"

SD: Like I said, I don't know them well enough to say, but they must certainly have to re-interpret the obvious implications of certain facts like Mataji's multi-million dollar profiteering.

Y: Are they power hungry?

SD: I've got no reason to believe they are. Y: or deluded fools?

SD: If they believe that Mataji is the unique incarnation of the Adi Shakti then they are at least deluded on that point. In this they are as foolish as I was when I believed the same thing. Yon, I can  see that you are trying to bolster your faith by appealing to  supposed authorities. It was this that drew me into SYoga in the  first place. I thought, "The fact that so many people say they are  experiencing this awakening shows that something is really going on  here." Something was going on - en masse deception and self- deception - of which I became a small and insignificant part for six  years.

If these four Sahaja Yogis are as deep as you evidently believe, then surely they should be able to pass the envelope test - to distinguish between two identical envelopes, one containing a photo of Hitler and one containing a photo of Mataji ('miracle' or otherwise). If none of these four deep souls can consistently pass the test, then Sahaja Yoga's promise of vibratory awareness must surely ring hollow. If any one of them can consistently pass it, then I'm sure humankind will be willing to give SYoga more of a hearing. Why not suggest it to the four of which you write?

Y: I know whatever I say will be greeted cynically or counteracted  with "facts" which I'm fully convinced of is maya not reality.

SD: To ignore facts is to bury your head in the sand.

From: "Diet Moksha" <diet_moksha@y...> Reply-To: sahaja-yoga@egroups.com To: sahaja-yoga@egroups.com Subject: [SY] Re: Greetings Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 07:00:43 -0000

--- In sahaja-yoga@egroups.com, "Jeffrey Leow" <jleow21@h...> wrote:

BTW, everyone - and I mean EVERYONE was glad that PH was gone)

DM: Welcome Thor!

You have clearly ascended high in Sahaj! I am amazed at how you are able to read EVERYONE's minds! Do you have any other parapsychological abilities? Maybe you could also change other peoples perceptions of yourself. I can also read minds! I know that EVERYONE thinks you are a POMPOUS ASS.

I know that not EVERYONE was glad to see Patrick gone. A true sahaja yogi would never be glad that anyone was out of sahaja yoga. 'Out' of sahaja yoga means death/hell to any true devotee of Shri Mataji.

Thor stated: Mr. Hughes was disliked by many people in SY - he was a bully himself, arrogant and very mean. To put it plainly, some of us were afraid of him. He is big, tall, bald and has a red face (inner anger?) He was NEVER a big "leader" as he claimed. He did meetings in Miami, but was a pushy wanna-be leader type who always sat in front and sang songs of praise to SM as loud as he could - and he sure was LOUD. There are enough ear-straining videos and audios to prove this.

DM: He was/is liked by many in Sahaja Yoga. Yes, he sings loud. He  also has a good voice and sings with his heart. To my knowledge, Mr. Thor, Patrick never sexually abused anyone, never stole money, never intentionally deceived anyone, never did anything so bad to warrant the 'hell' out of Sahaja Yoga that you (and "EVERYONE" else) are so glad about.

Your compassion has no bounds Thor. I see that years of Sahaja Yoga meditation has paid off. Maybe all the Sahaja Yogis should aspire to be as compassionate as you.

May Odin guide your head out of your ass.

1593 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 9:07am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Greetings

No doubt "Le style c'est l'homme",

You heavenly Jeffrey Leow are no less than Hermod " The messenger of  God". And Thor! (that we all know) Waiting for your next 108 names, Excuse me for thinking you were the lost nose of Major Kaplikova. Miguel de Ch.

1594 From: Diet Moksha  <diet_moksha@y...>  Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 10:01am Subject: Re: Greetings

DM: Thor, you have missed the point of my posting. You do not know  me, nor does Patrick know you. You have dragged Patrick through the  mud and are trying to discredit him without exposing yourself. I only  gave you a taste of your own medicine. You wrote -

(please, no more accusations of "unsaintliness" - What accusations  you are talking about?

Thor:  BTW, we've pushed your site off the search list.

DM: Excuse me...what site of mine?

Thor; One point of interest - post this in your chat room if you  dare - Do you mean this chat room? It certainly isn't mine. I don't  have a chat room.

Thor: Whenever someone leaves SY, the "leaders" inform SM. SM either  asks a leader to follow up with the person who left, or expresses  some concern about them, often becoming silent for a while. Not true.  Most people come and go from Sahaja Yoga without notice. Some older  Sahaja Yogi's may be mentioned to her. Unless you were there for all  of her reactions, please don't comment on what you don't know. Well,  when they mentioned PH's exit from SY, SM's only comment was "good"  and then She immediately turned to other topics. Were you there?  Sorry that you're so upset you could not make it in SY - you can  always return when you've learned to approach SM with humility. You  can NEVER understand Her with your ego.

DM: Who said anything about Shri Mataji? I was talking to you.

Thor: For the few other gutter trash who slipped into the glorious  realm of SY, use your vulgar language amongst your own kind.

DM: Vulgar language? Language is only vulgar when the thought behind  it is. Believing in Sahaja Yoga and feeling *GLAD* when someone  leaves the 'Sahaja Yoga Grace' into 'Hell' is much more vulgar than  calling someone an ass.

Thor: For the nicer ones among you, don't fall for the politicians  who failed in SY. They will give you sweet "advice" (yes, Maguerite,  beware)

DM: You cannot possibly feel her pain.

Thor: while all along their true agenda is hidden.

DM: It is too bad that the true agenda of Sahaja Yoga is hidden from  all the people who enter the 'Free Meditation Classes' and 'Mind- Body' seminars.

Thor: Those of you who are still in SY, or are on the fence - don't  let these failed power seekers prevent you from enjoying the greatest  spiritual opportunity in aeons.

DM: ere you there in past aeons? Prove it.

Thor: REMEMBER what you FELT - the experience that YOU had - not what  these drop-outs want you to believe.

DM: Who says I want you to believe anything?

Thor: If you have doubts - ASK your local or country coordinator ("leader"). Why be afraid - you are considering leaving, anyway, so  ASK them to resolve your doubts.

DM: Talking resolves doubts? I thought we should rely on what we  FELT? Be careful which leader you choose to approach....

Thor: Sahaja Yoga techniques DO work on thousands of people.

DM: And they haven't worked on hundreds of thousands of others over  thirty years. Dare I say millions?

Thor: Sri Mataji Nirmala Devi is truly the greatest Spiritual teacher  on the planet today.

DM: Do you know any other spiritual teachers? How well do you know  Shri Mataji, in person?

  1595 From: Simon Dicon Montford  <sdm@e...>  Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 11:03am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Greetings

SD: Mataji would dance with the devil if she thought she could get  another mansion or a Nobel Peace Prize out of it.

Thor: Sorry that you're so upset you could not make it in SY - you  can always return when you've learned to approach SM with humility.  You can NEVER understand Her with your ego.

Those of you who are still in SY, or are on the fence - don't let  these failed power seekers prevent you from enjoying the greatest  spiritual opportunity in aeons.

SD:  WHy worry about the claims of the anti-SY brigade regarding  money, "conflicting" advice, etc. Do Christians deny the Bible because "an eye for an eye" was changed by the Christ to "turn the other  cheek"? So why worry when "give all your money to the poor" has  changed to "give all your money to me".

Of course Mataji wasn't the first to change it. Many have profited  from religion down through the millenia including her teacher  Rajneesh. He collected Rolls Royces, she collects houses.

Thor: REMEMBER what you FELT - the experience that YOU had - not what  these drop-outs want you to believe. Sure remember your experiences,  but also consider the objective facts. Be open to both and figure out  for yourself how these experiences and facts are best interpreted. Just because the blind cannot enjoy the sunshine does not mean that  the sun is a lie???

SD: Just because the pure light of the moon is reflected in a puddle  of water, it doesn't make the water fit to drink.

Thor: If you have doubts - ASK your local or country coordinator ("leader"). Why be afraid - you are considering leaving, anyway, so  ASK them to resolve your doubts.

SD: Take 10 identical envelopes with you, 5 with Mataji's picture in  and 5 with Hitler's picture in. If they could consistently sort out  the envelopes then they would be convincing. If not, it's all a sham.

Thor: Sahaja Yoga techniques DO work on thousands of people. Sri  Mataji Nirmala Devi is truly the greatest Spiritual teacher on the planet today.

SD: And one of the richest.

Thor:  She has even given spiritual experiences to many of those in this chat room - and we sure do have a varied bunch.

SD: Many other false gurus have 'given' such experiences too.

Thor: ANyway, this is my final letter to this group.

SD: Huh? You haven't even finished your series of hagiographies. You haven't even given us the benefit of your viewpoint on the many facts related at www.sahaja-yoga.org

Thor: I am also blocking your emails

SD: that old SY open-mindedness ;-)

Thor: and will not be directing my precious time to this chat room. I  only came for Craig, stayed for Christine,

SD: I can't say I'm sorry that you're leaving empty-handed. However,  I'd prefer it if you stayed and engaged in open dialogue. Have you  been instructed to depart by somebody higher up?

Thor: and now I am going to use ALL my precious time enjoying the  Bliss of being at the lotus feet of the Adi Shakti Herself, Sri  Mataji Nirmala Devi. For those of you who eventually decide to  return - the door is always open.

SD: It was slammed shut in Michael Knight's face. So are you, or are  you not, Johan de Cocker? Dare you reveal your identity before you  run back to Mataji's apron strings? Or why not stick around for a  while?

Best, SD

1596 From: Simon Dicon Montford  <sdm@e...>  Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 11:03am Subject: RE: [SY] Re: Miracle photos

Hermod Thor/Jeffrey Leow/whoever you are

Who told you about this poster? - if you dont want to publish it, at least send it to my email, after all you are not in SY, so it  shouldn't matter. This is hardly the only laughable 'miracle photo'  around. Few of them are not completely laughable.

Take the one on the cover of Divine Cool Breeze Vol 11 Nos 5 & 6 - the caption reads "Miracle photo of Shri Mataji's hands". I remember the photo was given out at an international puja in the late '80s.

IT IS A GODDAMN JOKE! It is obviously a double exposure. Any fool can see it. I'm sure it's obvious to many SYogis as it was to me when I was in SYoga. Like me they probably don't dare say that the king has got no clothes. Other photos just have smudges or amorphous lights on  them which Mataji declares to be deities - suddenly they become  miracles by her dictat.

Others are nothing out of the ordinary at all, but she just says that the photo shows her as some particular deity (eg Vanadevi) and these perfectly ordinary photos are declared as miracles.

I've seen other dumb-ass New Age people showing photos of themselves with lights coming out of them and claiming they are evidence of their auras or ectoplasm or whatever. Why doesn't SYoga collect together  all these miracle photos and show them to some experts in  photography. They would laugh their heads off.

You poor soul, like Yon you put your faith in these 'authorities'  because your own is so weak. Go and see a photographic expert if you  want an expert opinion. Why do you hang on to this concept of "old  timers"? Is it because it's the one thing that gives you status in  Sahaja Yoga? Mataji doesn't give a damn about how much of an old- timer you are.

Once David Spiro suggested to her that it would be a good idea to  have meetings of the old Sahaja Yogis. Mataji mockingly replied that  there could also be meetings of Sahaja Yogis with one eye or one leg. Some Sahaja Yogis may be impressed by your years in Sahaja Yoga but I  say: "After all these years can you pass the envelope test?

Can you demonstrate vibratory awareness under controlled conditions?"  If not, you haven't even got what everybody is supposed to get at  their first public meeting. Mataji doesn't give a damn about how long  you've been in SYoga. All she cares about is what you can do for her.

Once Bala condemned her to her face for being willing to use anybody  in any way to get her own ends. He also stood up to her over one (or  more) of her favourite SYogis who was using his position for sexually  abuse. Mataji didn't give in and pronounced the abuser a "Genius of  Sahaja Yoga" - he was useful to her as was Warren, that's all there  is to it. All this happened when Bala clearly still had some balls

You may not know it but Bala was the first SYogi on this list and  recounted his 'multidimensional experience'. I asked him a few  difficult questions and he was never heard of again. Do you dare stick around for the difficult questions or will you be  leaving Yon alone to fend off the onslaught of reality? SD   1597 From: Yon Lassnig  <yon.lassnig@m...>  Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [SY] arrogance

  J: For the few other gutter trash who slipped into the glorious realm  of SY, use your vulgar language amongst your own kind.

Y: eh Jeffrey, sorry to have to critisise a fellow yogi like this, but I find your tone embasrassingly arrogant. I know that the effect your  recent mails is having on me is to increase my sympathy with the ex  yogis. Ok, I understand that you want to counteract what is being  written here against Shri Mataji, well so do I, but do you think that  resorting to insulting expressions such as "gutter trash" is really  an effective way of doing this?

   1599 From: C & C Newton  <notwen@S...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 0:02am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Greetings

Jeffrey Leow wrote: Mr. "Diet Moksha", Ah yes, gutter talk. The net of SY is so wide,  even the scum of the earth...

C & C: Such arrogance, "Jeffrey"!

JL: just being factual and descriptive)

C & C: Factual? What do you mean? A fact is something like: Shri  Mataji took 200,000 Swiss francs from Jose Etchepareborda, calling it  a loan at the time, and never paid him back. Or: a boy was sexually  abused at the SY India school. Or: mataji just bought herself a golf  course in Australia. Calling someone the "scum of the earth" is an  opinion or a personal value judgment - not to be confused with a  fact. Such confusion seems to be very typical in SY.

JL: BTW, we've pushed your site off the search list.

C & C: Huh? Please explain... who's we? which site? whose site?

JL: I must clarify that when I said "everyone" I was talking about  everyone in the group of "Craig friends and aquaintances" who were  discussing his exit - not all 1200 people who were there. Most of  them don't know or even care, about PH or the anti-SY mob.

C & C: Mob?!? The people on this list are trying to make sense of  their often bad experiences in SY, and expose some of the (rather  nasty) goings on behind the scenes. They are being honest about what  they experienced and how they feel. I suppose you are too, but you  are projecting all your venom onto "the others," i.e. people who dare  to criticize mataji and SY. We're good, and right - you're scum of the earth!

JL: One point of interest - post this in your chat room if you dare -  Whenever someone leaves SY, the "leaders" inform SM. SM either asks a  leader to follow up with the person who left, or expresses some  concern about them, often  becoming silent for a while.

C & C: As a past so-called "leader," I can say that that is not  always or even often the case.

JL: For the few other gutter trash who slipped into the glorious  realm of SY, use your vulgar language amongst your own kind.

C & C: Gutter trash... more of same. You are really very upset. But  insulting others will not help you. Listening to what they have to  say might be more effective.

JL:  For the nicer ones among you, don't fall for the politicians who  failed in SY. They will give you sweet "advice" (yes, Maguerite,  beware) while all along their true agenda is hidden.

C & C: More accusations!... what on earth are you talking about?  what "hidden agenda?" My experience has been that it is SY that has  the hidden agenda: talk to "new people" about meditation, relaxation,  balancing the chakras without revealing the true beliefs of SY and  what they are getting themselves into, i.e., slavish devotion to shri  mataji nirmala devi.

JL: If you have doubts - ASK your local or country coordinator ("leader"). Why be afraid - you are considering leaving, anyway, so  ASK them to resolve your doubts.

C & C: Mmm. Do you really think another person can "resolve your  doubts?" A number of people on this list have tried that (Graham, if  you're there, I remember your account of asking your local leader  some questions...), with little satisfaction. It's been my experience  that the ability to think for oneself is inversely correlated with  proximity to/involvement in SY.

JL:  Sahaja Yoga techniques DO work on thousands of people.

C & C: Yes, that's the claim. But what about the many for whom they  don't work? There's always some rationalization, and it's always ther  person's fault.

JL: ANyway, this is my final letter to this group. I am also blocking  your emails,

C & C: All you have to do is unsubscribe from the list :-)

JL: and will not be directing my precious time to this chat room. I  only came for Craig, stayed for Christine

C & C: I appreciate it - I guess... but you still haven't responded  to the questions in my previous posting, beginning with who you are.  You must realize that remaining anonymous and hiding behind the  grandiose "Thor", "Hermod," and so on greatly detracts from your  credibility.

JL: and now I am going to use ALL my precious time enjoying the Bliss  of being at the lotus feet of the Adi Shakti Herself, Sri Mataji  Nirmala Devi.

C : C: Your righteous indignation is duly noted. Goodness knows I've  been there myself ;-)   1600 From: C & C Newton  <notwen@S...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 0:25am Subject: Re: [SY] Old- Timers # 3

Hermod Thor wrote:Gregoire de K. (GK) would need a book to describe  him ? he was larger than life. I knew him both in Europe and in  America. He was an intellectual ? very dynamic, with a freight train  of a brain ? always thinking.

C & C: Intelligence is no protection against manipulation,  unfortunately. Even very intelligent people can be duped. First you  convince them that their intellect is useless. Mataji heaps scorn on  intellectuals and intellectual endeavors, saying that all the  knowledge you need you will find in SY. For example, she will talk  about "genie-asses" when referring to geniuses.

She will say "You think too much!" when they express any kind of  doubt or question. "Don't think!" becomes the mantra. And so the  person - who may have a genius IQ, but have just as many emotional  problems as the next person - begins to doubt her/himself, and  his/her own rational throught processes. Mind control is all about  destabilizing, breaking down defenses, and creating a new dependence  on the manipulator.

1601 From: C & C Newton  <notwen@S...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 0:27am Subject: Re: A daughter's story-for Marguerite and other mothers

Dear Marguerite,

My heart goes out to you, and I hope my story may offer you some encouragement and hope regarding your situation with your daughter. I became deeply involved in Sahaja Yoga in 1977, at the age of 23. It  was a low point in my life, and SY seemed to offer everything that I  needed: a sense of higher purpose, community, being special, clearcut  values, and so on. I clung to it as to a life boat. At the time, my  relationship with my real mother was very shaky, and had been since  my mid-teens for a number of reasons that I won't go into here. In  particular, I blamed her for her and my father's divorce that had  left me feeling terribly depressed, confused, and without a secure home base.

When I excitedly showed my mother "A Unique Discovery" she was not as enthusiastic as I had hoped. In fact, she never mentioned it. I  couldn't understand why she would not be as excited about SY as I  was. I brought her to a public program, and instead of finding it  wonderful, she found it frightening. When it became clear that my  mother had no interest in SY, Mataji fueled our estrangement by  labeling my mother "possessed" and "satanic."

I came to the conclusion that she was not a "seeker" and was a frivolous, superficial woman. As happens in a cult, she gradualy  became a "non-person" to me, meaning that nothing she said or did or  felt was of any real importance or value. (My father lived on another  continent at the time, and seemed somewhat more receptive, but we had  little contact). She was horrified by my arranged marriages, but I  discounted that because she was not a part of SY. In fact I was angry  at her for not being happy that I'd been married by God.

For 13 years, I maintained minimal contact with my mother. She was  truly not a part of my life, because my life revolved entirely around  SY and my other "mother." Anyone who was not interested was not worth  spending much time or energy on. All this time, my mother welcomed  any contact we might have, and remained loving and affectionate (I  don't know how she managed it, in the face of my utterly asinine and  not very pleasant attitude).

When my life fell apart, and I was ready to distance myself from SY,  it was my mother (and step-father) who took me in without any  questions and helped me rebuild my shattered life. Not once did she  reproach me for all those years of estrangement (again, I don't know  how she managed it - perhaps by just being in the present and  enjoying what is rather than going back over what was). She was just  happy that we could be together. I owe her so much...

My Mom died on January 1 of this year. She was a wonderful woman,  full of contradictions, enthusiasms, whimsy. And above all, she was a  loving mother - not perfect by any means, who is? - but loving and  fiecely protective. She taught me a lot. I'm just grateful that we  had the last 10 years to enjoy each other and get to know each other  again on a truly human basis.

Marguerite, I hope and pray that things eventually work out for you  and your daughter. Please don't give up on her. Please keep the lines  of communication open, even though you feel hurt and sad and angry,  and justifiably so. She is, as I was, in a state of intoxication. She  is not herself - not really. She is under the influence. Her attitude  toward you right now is shaped by SY mind control (i.e., inculcation  of SY beliefs and values). Hopefully one day she will come to her  senses. As you can see on this list, people have been able to pull  out. I wish you all the best, and please feel free to contact me  personally if you would like to. I can imagine no more painful thing  than what you are going through.

Warmly, Christine P. S. I don't know if it would be helpful to you, but there are some  very good books about cults and cult involvement that give a lot of information. They's listed on the "Facts" website. I found them very useful in trying to make sense of how I had been subjected to mind  controlin SY, and the mechanisms of cult dynamics.

  1602 From: C & C Newton  <notwen@S...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 0:57am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Greetings

Jeffrey Leow wrote: ... gutter talk... scum of the earth ... anti-SY  mob... post this in your chat room if you dare ... "good riddance  to .....!!"... failed power seekers... gutter trash ... their true agenda is hidden. ...for the few other who slipped into  the glorious realm of SY, use your vulgar language amongst your own  kind.

C & C: It is common for cult members and leaders to become aggressive  and verbally abusive, using hyperbole and a paranoid, defensive style  when confronted by any questioning or doubt of their beliefs or  teachings. They hide behind the "might of feeling right"  (e.g., "Messenger of God" and so on). This is by no means unique to  SY. Yon is a notable exception in this respect. She is honest, up- front, willing to engage and debate as a human being, and to  acknowledge when she's gone over the top or been mean. I wish I could  say the same for when I was in SY :-(

  1604 From: Yon Lassnig  <yon.lassnig@m...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 1:37am Subject: Re: [SY] arrogance

SD: In addition to this I have received spiteful emails from a number of SY leaders, one of whom said he wished the four SY thugs outside the Albert Hall had carried out their threat to smash my face in. I've also received obscene email from senior Sahaja Yogis.

Y: well I dont think this is the right approach. what would it have helped s yoga if those thugs had beaten you up outside the albert  hall? I certainly dont wish you to be beaten up, firstly because I  know you do mean well and are genuinely convinced that you are  fighting for the truth, and secondly because beating you up would  really give you a big moral victory. I wish there was some way of  getting you to experience Shri Matajis love and compassion for  yourself, so that you could finally understand the truth that I am trying to live in. But that's not easy for someone  whos heart is so completely closed to her as yours is. I know my  words will be as usual ineffectual, you dont need words, you need  some good strong powerful, divine Vibes, that would really sort you  out properly in a way that a beating up never could. Best wishes, Yon

1605 From: Ann Handley  <lightof_god@y...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 2:12am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: A daughter's story-for Marguerite and other  mothers

Thank you so much Christine, your letter meant so much to me and I  have been trying to keep in touch even though I don't know if she  reads my emails or just deletes them but I will keep sending them.  They are not sent back to me so I hope that she is reading them. I  will be here for her whenever she is ready and I will never repraoch  or - I just want her back with her family - I love here with all my  heart and if I could give my life for hers right now so that she would be back to reality I would without question.

You are right it is very hard and I know that right now GOD is  holding me, carrying me, and probably will be for awhile until I am  able to cope on my own.. Thank you agian and GOD bless you & I would  like to email you privately, what is your emal address???    1606 From: Simon Dicon Montford  <sdm@e...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 4:03am Subject: Austrian Ministry for Environment, Youth and Family

 I see there's an English translation of an informational brochure on  cults from the Austrian Ministry for Environment, Youth and Family at: http://cisar.org/990913b.htm If you search the page for sahaja  you'll see that SY gets quite a few mentions. SD

  1607 From: C & C Newton  <notwen@S...>  Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 4:17am Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Greetings

Lumi S Sammallahti wrote:

Re: Or: a boy was sexually abused at the SY India school.

L: Excuse me?

C : C: See below:

Simon Dicon Montford wrote:

Dear Ileana

Thank you for your mail. I'm one of the small group of ex-Sahaja  Yogis associated with the SY:Facts website who recieve the mail going  to its contact_@i... address. Others may write to you. I make some comments below:

I: I have not been in SY for 5 years since my fiance could not rely  on the "free will" of his own "guru" to marry me in India. We were  one of those extraordinary couples who had the audacity to arrange  ourselves to be married, and yes, we received SM's blessing, although  he needed to be convinced of that over and over.

SD: In my time (10-15 years ago) she usually agreed to these  marriages and said that she rarely refused them. I don't think she  really likes them though and I heard that at a Ganesha puja a couple  of years ago she said that she'd only bless arranged marriages.

I: And my fiance? Well, he begged me to go to India where we could meet up and get married "at SM's feet." I had a misersble income, was  raising two daughters and lived with my mother. Yet I went. After  all, I don't want to be attached to anything, much less my children  and the only $4,000 I had left to my name. After all, m fiance was a  big star thanks to SY! Allah (SM) will provide,right? So, I took off  work for five weeks, spent my nest egg and came home a single person.  Apparently, the bastard had partied while on tour in Europe and  didn't feel "pure" enough to come to India.

SD: He could at least have told you he wasn't going.

I: Plus, he was afraid SM would change her mind at the last minute  and marry him off to some little Indian woman. Four or so months  later, I broke up with him. He then showed up on my doorstep with two  tickets to Cabella for a puja ( the name escapes me now). He said we needed to go there and place our relationship at SM's feet. Itold him: No thanks. Been there, done that in India. Where were you?  He worked on me for a week, trying to convince me to go. Finally, I relented. He broke up with me on the return trip after SM refused to  see him. I cried and went home.

SD: Well, you lost your man and your money but you got your life back  outside a cult.

I: Weeks later I read a poem of his in the Sudarshan about what it was like to fly from California to Cabella on the way to this puja. Somehow, he left out stopping on the East coast unannounced for more than a week, trying to convince me to go to Italy, and sleeping  with me. Well, even if he'd put it in, the editors would have taken  it out. Still, it must have been pretty sick to read. Turns out he  ended in an arranged marriage to a little Indian woman. With one big Indian woman sitting on both of them.

Anyway, my daughter went to the India schol. She was 14 at the time.  An American teenager through and through with a great sense of adventure -- not so much a seeker. The worst part about her 9-month  experience was not that she was malnourished and had to steal food  from the pantry along with others her age so they could eat more than  rice and chapati's and help feed the little ones, who were starving.  It wasn't the fact that she stopped getting her period, and is likely  two inches shorter than she would've been given the lack of proper  nutrition and care. It wasn't even the dismal academic instruction  she received.

SD: Sounds bad enough so far.

I: Rather, it was that one of the teenage boys was molested by the  male music teacher, and the principal accused the young man of lying  about it. The teens all knew about it and did their best to protect  the others. When the was finally removed from the school, the teens  were told he was gone. But apparently not for good. That November,  the older kids (my daughter included) were lucky enough to leave the  school for a puja in Turkey. And guess who was there sitting next to  SM singing bajans. Yup! Mr. Child Molester himself. Of course, the  boy -- a European --who had been victimized, and later re-victimed as  a liar, was aghast.

As well as the other teens there who knew what happened. Exactly how  was I supposed to explain that to my daughter, who of course, did not  return the following> year, much less the boy who was abused (and his  closest friends). Yogi Mahajan was informed of this through my  relative, along with a host of other yogis. For all I know, that  music teacher is still in SY. Do you really think anyone was about  believing this?

SD: Although I've heard many reports about the sexual abuse of adults  in SY,this was the first I've heard about the sexual abuse of minors.  This is one of the worst, if not THE worst, thing I've read about  SYoga. I couldn't get to sleep after reading this last night.

Today I checked with another of our group and he'd heard the same  story, with only a few minor differences, as a rumour rather than a  solid report. I guess there must be a group of people in their late  teens, early 20s who don't feel able to talk about this. I'm glad  your daughter has felt able to talk to you.

One of the most worrying things is that it could happen again EVEN IF  this particular abuser is thrown out (and we have no reason to  believe that he is). When instances of the sexual abuse of adult  SYogis were discussed on the Sahaja Yoga mailing list 2 or 3 years  back, the SYogis said it could happen in the past but could never  happen now. Since then we have recieved news of recent abuse  indicating that the pattern is unchanged (complete with the usual  victim-blaming).

Sahaja Yoga is completely unable to deal with these problems so any  child sent to a Sahaja Yoga school is in a level of danger which is  intolerable. The question is: what do you want to do with this story?  Do you want to publicise it? If so we have a number of options and  should discuss it. I have to say that I would like to see this story  out. My only worry is for the young man (or men) concerned - I don't  want them to be victims 3rd time round.

Please write back with your thoughts on the publication of your story and/or the India school story. Feel free to write about anything else as well. If you just reply to this message your email will come to me  and I'll treat it as private. If you change the recipient of your  message to contact_@i... it will be forwarded to all the members of  our group (highly secure) who read your original message and this  reply.

Best wishes, Simon Dicon   

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