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Contributors: Simon, Mayank, Quasar, J Leow, Satya, Karl, FJ  Shepherd, Darren Elsbury   
2241 From: Simon Dicon Montford  <sdm@e...>  

Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 10:39pm
Subject: RE: [SY] The Crux of the Matter!

Mayank: For the time that I have been part of this discussion group,  I have read many attacks on SY. So many of the attacks have been in  the area of SY and finances, abuse of all kinds, hyocrisies, etc. But you know, pretty well all accusations of this type can be  levelled against any religious or spiritual organization. If you want  to find fault in these areas you can find it with any such type of  group. Try and level an attack on the Roman Catholic Church and use  an accusation that you have not used on SY -- good luck!

SD: To me, all such accusations and attacks are irrelevant. The crux  of the matter is the nature of Sri Mataji herself. These problems in  SY are a direct reflection on Mataji because she is directly involved  in many of them and has set up the authoritarian power structure that  allows other abuses to take place. Sure you could say the same about  the Popes,but they don't claim to be Omniscient and Omnipotent (let's  leave aside the relatively recent doctrine of Papal Infallibility  which does not pertain to all a Pope's actions and sayings).

All the Catholic Church claims is that they are guided by the Holy  Spirit, not that they are the Holy Spirit. It admits that Popes are imperfect and thus draws a distinction between the imperfect  person and the perfect office. I think we can expect more from a  Complete and Perfect Incarnation than blaming the victims of sexual  abuse, lying, stealing, rampant profiteering, etc. I would also  expect God's own organisation to differ from other obviously fake  cults. The fruits of this tree are the same. SD     2242 From: quasarx@u...  Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 11:29pm Subject: Re: [SY] Manak

I understand your enthusiasm. I often think that ppl that join  religions or cults - its like falling in love - in self.suggestion  they open up this very "real" world, they admit feeling the presence  of God. You, Manak, you are armed with Vedanta theories - and the  Sahaj Lore. Often u speak from the heart, but often I feel u see  urself like some pundit preaching things that - no offense - are well  known (in depth) by most in this forum.

People in here are talking from their experience too. And one should  listen and respect, never labelling them "ah well they must have done  something wrong" - or you could say what many hindus say "ah well its  karma".

Many gone very high and/or deep. But again, this 'feeling' can be  triggered by other sentiments: love, cults, even drugs. Noone wants to be disrespectful towards God or an Incarnation. But  many claimed to be one and clearly were not. Shri Mataji openly  stated to be the Adi Shakti. Some believe it firmly, others dont,  others are just watching. But in stating that and stating that Sahaja  Yoga is the only way - moreover that you will be cursed if you  leave .. one should be vigilant.

What 'if' we have an illusion just like another cult? Ardent  followers of other cults would swear with all their hearts - their  way *is* the way. Then we have Sahaja Yogis very unhappy, doing bad  things, and worse instead of Sahaja Yoga giving joy its chewing away  the soul of many innocent people (but again you disregard them  as 'guilty') - .. I dont think at all its a sin to "see",  to "observe" and "state" the facts.

I still talk with many Sahaja Yogis and them telling me about the  continuing frustrations and lack of joy in the organization. Also the  injustices happening, one of which i mentioned previously. Many ppl here are still seekers, they have strong hearts and wish to  know God, to know the truth and do good. Their intelligence have to  be respected. If they say something is *wrong* - instead of smirking  or labelling them as *blind* - acknowledge.

You hardly read what I said about that - very good Yogini .. She was thrown out. But ppl told me: it wasnt her fault. Where the  Yogi which in your way of seeing: still has a Bad Mooladhara - is  still bouncing and floating about in Sahaja Yoga.

Her marriage everything and her dream is destroyed. As she loved so  much Sahaja Yoga. She was very talented too - and knew how to play  all the bhajans classically in the piano. Manak, you can carry on  with shatrus, ida, pingala, moha, lobha, kama, nipatatas vedanta  theories. And write things like coming from a SY tape.I for one  believe that people also should be respected and treated accordingly.  They too form a part of God, they too are a reflection of God.

Don't for once think that when many ppl think "freedom" - is because  they want lust, greed, ego .. it may be a novelty for some, but many  r pretty bored with such cheap sensations. We (or I at least) .. want  harmony, peace, love, joy - freedom to grow in all aspects: : Freedom  from fear, Freedom from guilt, Freedom from intolerance, ignorance  and injustice. ~ Quasar ~

2243 From: satyakikhoj@y...  Date: Tue May 1, 2001 2:54am Subject: Hello Mayank

Hello, I must admit that it is nice to hear a pro-sahaja voice on  this forum. I wish that more people like mayank joined this forum to  share with us their views. Mayank, I had a single question for you. I  wish you would be considerate enough to answer me.

Why don't we announce to the world that Shri Mataji is Adishakti, or  GOD ?? Why doesn't this fact appear on the Sahaja website ?? Why have  we been instructed time and again, by our leaders to avoid  telling "too much" to new comers?? Why do we hide this till the  person is "ready".

Why can't I tell a rank newcomer that he should drink "vibrated  water" because it has been purified by washing Shri Mataji's feet.Why  don't we arrange a press conference and announce to the world that  Shri Mataji is Adishakti ??

Why do we tell the schools that what we try and propogate is not  religious ??? Why can't we simply go to the schools and tell them  that the Holy ghost / Allah / Adishakti has incarnated and we are  here to give her message.

Why do we go to offices and advertise sahaja as a stress busting  course and conveniently leave out pujas , vibrated water, catching  your ears and asking shree mataji for forgiveness. Why can't i tell  my CEO that the program i am trying to organise is a lot more than  the carefully guided letter written by our leader and approved by the  sahaja committee ?? After all, if Shri Mataji is AdiShakti, what do  we have to fear???? why do we have to hide the TRUTH ???

I would really appreciate any comments. I hope you understand the  concern behind these questions. It is the lies that i cannot seem to  adjust to.thank you

2244 From: Simon Dicon Montford  <sdm@e...>  Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:05am Subject: RE: [SY] Hi friends

Manyank : You have some problem with the institution of Shri Mataji.  Well there are many proofs that she really is the DIVINE MOTHER.

(i) You do not want this to be listed again, but this is the best  way. Ask an extremely specific question after a nice meditation : "I  ask with all humility, is Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi the divine mother?  Is she the Adishakti?" I need not give you the answer.

SD: {resumably you mean that the bodily sensation that one would feel  would consititute an answer. Have you tried the envelope experiment  yet? Until somebody passes that under controlled conditions, all talk  of vibratory awareness is pointless.

Mayank: (ii) Meet people who have seen her "nirvikara roop" during  meditation or else(in their home,etc.) and ask them about thier  experiences. I have met hundreds of people who tell me such  incedences which are not turned in any way(as one of my friends  accuses) to suit Sahaja Yoga. Even my mother has one.

SD: This was my original reason for me believing in SYoga. Now I know  that many mutually exclusive cults can offer hundreds of people with  experiences that 'prove' that their cult is the One True Way.

Mayank: (iii) Feel the attraction and divinity in her voice and  presence. When at the airport, for recieving her, all people(and  thankfully including me), start feeling strong vibrations when Shri  Mataji's plane is near(without anyone telling us that Shri Mataji has  or is about to arrive).

SD: If you hadn't known that Mataji was going to arrive, you wouldn't  have been at the airport. Why is it that in all the time Mataji was a  diplomatic wife, none of the people she was serving drinks to noticed that she was anything special?

Mayank: (iv) See her divine and miraculous photographs (posted on  many sites) and inspect them carefully. You'll find no doubt or  falsification.

SD: Has a single one been verified by experts in these matters? Some  that have been declared by Mataji are known to have everday  explanations eg a flash reflecting on glass or lamps behind a  curtain. There is a good example at www.sahaja-yoga.org in the notes  at the end of Mataji's recent letter condemning her critics. It's one  of the first few links on the "What's New?" page entitled "We've got  mail!"

M: And there are many more ways.

SD: Like what?

M: The basic problem is that we do not try to realize her as God,  because she is alive. That was done for every incarnation. When Jesus  was on earth, no one treated him as God; they did after his death.

SD: We have no first-hand accounts of Jesus' life so it is difficult  to judge what he was like. As for Mataji we have much evidence of her  cruelty, injustice and profiteering. Let me remind you about the  envelope test. What have you got to fear from trying it? Best wishes, Simon Dicon

2245 From: FJ Shepherd  <fjs_100@h...>  Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:43am Subject: Re: [SY] Hello Satyakikhoj

Dear Satyakikhoj:

The answer to your question is very simple: "Why don't we announce to  the world that Shri Mataji is Adishakti?" The simple answer is  this: "Most of the world does even know what an Adishakti is." So,  why should anyone announce this?

Now in the West, if Sri Mataji was announced as the Mother of God,  or, as the Virgin Mary reincarnated, this would have some meaning.  However, once the announcement was made, Westerners would shake their  heads in disbelief. Those with a wry sense of humour might ask for  proof.

Let us face it, the concept of the existence of the Divine Mother is  mainly a Hindu concept. Only neo gnostics like Carl Jung knew of her.  But how many Westerners even know this about Jung? Regards, FJS

2252 From: Karl Wilson  <karlhwilson@y...>  Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:46am Subject: Re: [SY] The Crux of the Matter!

I respectfully and heartily disagree on what is the crux(s) of the  matter. SY is based on a false premise (along with the rest of  civilization). That premise is that humanity is the pinnacle of  creation, that everything on Earth is made for human consumption,  that all we have to do is become saints and everything will be ducky,  and that in order to become saints we need to be saved from our  inherent flaws by some entity who has created the whole scenario.

There is no reason to believe that this is true. For 3 million years  we have been humans. For ten thousand years some of us have chosen to  believe this false premise. We are wrong, and this is obvious to  anyone who can pay attention without preconceptions.

SY doctrine states that we need to become our own gurus is order to  answer any questions we may have concerning existence or what have  you. SY then turns around and fills our heads with everything that  is "true". It is like teaching children to paint by giving them a  nice painting we have done. Less messy that way, you know. *** If Mataji wants to be god, that's okay with me. She certainly has  charisma. If you want to worship her as god, fine. We all crave a  little euphoria. But I know a chickadee who is just as much god as  anyone else. We worship each other sometimes for the fun of it. Love, Karl   2253 From: FJ Shepherd  <fjs_100@h...>  Date: Wed May 2, 2001 7:10am Subject: Re: [SY] The Crux of the Matter -- Hey Karl

Karl: We are probably on much different wave-lengths, however, you have  raised some very good points if one was a non-theist. But I doubt we  would ever see eye to eye on anything after you said:

"If Mataji wants to be god, that's okay with me. She certainly has  charisma. If you want to worship her as god, fine. We all crave a  little euphoria."

FJS writes: So you believe that Sri Mataji has charisma? My Lord man,  I had no idea that a mumbler could have charisma. I was shocked to  hear her speak in public and to find out that it was not my hearing  that was amiss after listening to all those video tapes. God mumbles.  I was so devastated.

It always amazed me that if she is supposed to be the Holy Spirit  incarnate, and it was this same Holy Spirit that gave Jesus'  disciples the ability to speak in other tongues on the day of  Pentecost, that Sri Mataji has very little command of very many  tongues and most certainly not English. But she mumbles too. I would  always have to guess at the last 3 or 4 words of her sentences.

Well, this may sound cruel, but if one is God, then surely good  communication should be a breeze. But such a thick accent and  mumbling lends itself to very little clarity and a major stumbling  block to charisma. Regards, FJS 2259 From: Simon Dicon Montford  <sdm@e...>  Date: Thu May 3, 2001 7:46am Subject: RE: [SY] Hello friends!

Mayank: Some of you accuse Shri Mataji becoming rich through Sahaja  Yogis(!!!!!!!) Well, all I can say is that you have not known the  truth or you are arguing for the sake of it. Such baseless arguments  and accusations should never doubt your mind. Have you read the Money  page at www.sahaja-yoga.org ? If not, you should read it carefully  and make your own calculations of how much money is raised. Shri  Mataji, let alone getting rich through Sahaja Yogis, is economically  supportive in all Life Eternal Trust activities(like destitute homes,  old age homes, Sahaja hospitals,etc.).

SD: People have to pay to go to the hospital. Could you provide  figures on the expenditure of the homes you refer to? How many people  live there?

M:  She does not take even a penny from any Sahaja Yogi for her  personal account.

SD: I'm sorry Mayank but this is simply untrue. A lot of SYoga money  goes directly into bank accounts that are in Mataji's name. It has  been this way for at least 15 years.

M: We, her children, are not able to give her something big(like  property,etc.) only due to the fact that it would seem like she is  making money out of Sahaja Yoga.

SD: Not only are may of the SYoga-financed properties in her name,  but a castle in France was even bought with SYoga money in her  husband's name. The first property to be bought with SYoga money was  Shudy Camps in the UK. The SYogis wanted to put it in the name of the  Life Eternal Trust UK. Mataji said that it should be put in her name.  Thus, when she sold up at US1,000,000 profit, all the money went with  her.

M: "Sahaja Yoga can not be sold", she says.

SD: Mataji's critics are not claiming consistency between her  espoused and enacted beliefs.

M: For eg. We tried to give Shri Mataji a nice car on her birthday  this year. But we were not able to do so. She tells us that it is not  that she doesn't love us, but the fact that this could be eyed with  suspicion for those who have not yet found out what the truth is.

SD: She's never shown much interest in cars, she prefers property and  golf courses. Property appreciates after all. She's no fool.

M: So never, and I mean never, lay down such an accusation on your  mother.

SD: My mother isn't a swindler like Mataji.

M: Seconldly, about Rajneesh(I never thought that we would be talking  about such a demon here in this forum), she was never his disciple.  She has told us and even written it in her book that before starting  Sahaja Yoga, she had to visit all the well proclaimed gurus of the  world(and  others) to determine the level of truth being preached.

SD: The Omniscient Goddess had to make personal visits?

M: Thus, she had to meet him also. She has written in her book that  it was a very sad incident of seeing that man preaching all nonsense  and irrelevant thoughts which the people in front of him, mesmerised  of course, blindingly accepted. She was so sad that afterall it were  her children being spoilt, and being their mother, their holy mother,  she had to do something.

SD: I still don't understand why she had to make a number of visits  to Rajneesh's apartment, travel hundreds of miles to attend one of  his 2-week meditation camps in Nargol, travel back with him in the  same car, and make another visit to his apartment after that. The  Omniscient One must have been making a very careful study.

M: That was the day : 5th of May, 1970, that she opened up the  Sahastrara of the universe. She left Nargol for Bombay on the 2nd of  May. You need not just gulp down the information, check it on your  vibrations(if you are still regularly meditating and have your  kundalini afloat.)

SD: Rather than relying on unproven 'vibratory awareness', we checked  it out with people who were actually around Mataji and Rajneesh in  1970. Please read the results of this research: http://members.tripod.com/toutsursahajayoga/origins.htm Best wishes, Simon Dicon

2260 From: Jeffrey Leow  <jleow21@h...>  Date: Thu May 3, 2001 0:53pm Subject: Happy again

Dear Onelisters, Aren't we all happy that this previously dead forum has been revived  by just a little "chain pulling" - of both the pro and anti-SY sects?  (Yes,even those who left SY are now members of another sect, the anti- SY sect.) The response to my 2 emails has been good. As to where I  stand? - I know from my time in SY that both the pro and the antis  are mainly being honest.

There ARE a lot of unexplained, sorrow causing events in SY. Yet,  there are also those pleasant moments of meditation, and the  inexplicable cool breeze, nay, a rushing gale of wind flowing from SM  at pujas. What to make of it?

I, like many others wish it would be 100% either way so that life  would be simpler. Ah Well.

2261 From: Mayank Kumar  <mayankyogi@y...>  Date: Thu May 3, 2001 11:24pm Subject: Jai Shri Mataji - Mayank here

Jai Shri Mataji. Dear friends, Though the response to my letters was very disappointing (as far as  content and quality is concerned), I have decided to give it atleast  one more try. It was very bad on my part that some of you felt that I  was preaching. What I was trying to do was bring out the truth and  sincerely request you all to come back.

I fail to understand why, even after specifically answering all the  queries in separate individual letters, I failed to get my point  validated into your huge and extensively complicated analysis mechanism(may be that's the reason). Well, I make one more hopeful  attemt here, not to go astray, not to preach, but specifically  answer. I have written my views against the name of person who is  presently trying to carry his/her respective point.

Dear SatyaKiKhoj - "Why don't we announce to the world of Adishakti's descend ?" Well, dear friend, when we ask this  question, in our minds arises one more question as to "Who needs to  be told about Her Holiness' descend on earth as an incarnation of  Adishakti ?" As soon that this this question rings up, so does its  answer - "To the real seekers." Now it is the job of Sahaja Yogis to  spread the awareness; "but among whom?" -"The seekers." Everyone in  this world need not be told of Shri Mataji's presence. Though  everyone in this world should always have a chance to enter into  Sahaja Yoga.

Then when they are new in Sahaja Yoga, telling them everything about  Shri Mataji and that she really is the divine mother and the  Adishakti would not solve any purpose, but due to lack of faith  and/or devotion, some could get lost in the darkness and would  finally be seen as external elements. This is NOT what should happen.  Thus, when they get deep into yoga and fully realize themselves, then  they have the capability to realize Shri Mataji as the Adishakti and  this is the correct time to tell them.

Thus, in a way, everyone is a viable option to let this news into his  soul, but not into his mind; because soul is over the mind and real realization is through the soul and not through the mind. This  point may also be understood by all so called ex-members. In this  context, I also appreciate the view of Mr.F.J.Shepherd. ***************

Dear Simon M Dicon - "Give me result to the test."

You would appreciate that not only me, but many of my brothers and  sisters also passed the test with flying colours(5/5). Well, the test  could be easily replaced with one single question to the Param  Chaitanya  - "I am at the stage to pass this test ?"

"Give me a scientifically verified proof."

Though there are many scientific proofs(I think that you have always  logged on to sahaja-yoga.org rather than the real website  www.sahajayoga.org, it contains a list of many scientific proofs), I  will list here a recent one that has not been listed on the official website. There is a machine indeginiously developed by Italian  scientists known as the"VEGA Machine." This machine measures the  energy levels of people and is especially utilized in studying the  relative energy forms of patients(for analysis purpose).

One very sick patient being monitored by the group of scientists there gave the chance to test Sahaja Yoga on a very weak and sick  patient. Her initial energy levels were recorded. Next, she was given  a photograph of Shri Mataji and was required to look towards it. And  wow -The energy levels shot up and all parameters came very close to  their recommended general levels. The photo was taken away and the  energy levels instantaneously dropped down.

She was given the photos of many people one by one, including many  proclaimed gurus and the energy levels still remained down. Then  again the level shot up as soon as another photograph of Shri Mataji  was given.

Next, the photo was taken back and after verifying that the levels  again dropped down, she was given realization by some Sahaja Yogis.  And again wow - The energy level started rising chakra by chakra and after the total process, neared the healthy limits. Now,  after self-realization, even after giving her no photograph, the  energy levels remained afloat.

*************** Dear FJS - " Why would some Indians regard Shri Mataji as a Christian leader ?"

I don't know wether that it is in your knowledge or not, but Indian  people are very specific over the religion and origin("gotra") of  every person they know. This is a misconception in their thinking that the religion and caste of a person could predict a person's character  and personality. Since Shri Mataji was born in a Christian family,  this is the first reason.

Secondly, when she has to tell many new comers about praying to Jesus  Christ as their lord, some are not feasible with the so called  Christian outlook. But it is a truth and those who deny it may leave(  or better to say that they have to leave, entangled in Illusion,Maya).

"Explain Nirvikara Roop."

"Vikara" is physical form or appearance(for eg. say the shape)  and "Nir" is a nullifier prefix(like anti-in english). So "Nirvikara"  means that which is not in physical form or shape. We have to  recognize and establish within ourselves this form of God. We have to  know Shri Mataji in her "Nirvikara roop" and not in the form in which  she physically appears. **************** See, I am not preaching but this is a fact to be realized that "SOUL  IS OVER THE MIND, OUR SPIRITUAL BEING IS GREATER THAN THE PHYSICAL  AND ANLYTICAL ONE." If we really consider ourselves as the  descendants of Lord Christ, we have to clear our Agya (Solar Plexus)  and attain our self-realization. All ex-members, if they are able to  get over their ego and fear(as to what people will say if they join  back), are awaited with open arms of all Sahaja Yogis and are welcome  in the realm of God.

Lord Jesus warned us - "Beware of the murmuring soul." So all of us,  who are real seekers, must be very aware of the negative elements  which also are, in this, Kalayuga, in collectivity and are trying to  mislead us. We have to be concious of our real self and keep away  from these anti-Sahaja elements. Sincerely yours, Mayank Kumar. Jai Shri Mataji.     2262 From: Simon D M  <sdm@e...>  Date: Fri May 4, 2001 0:11am Subject: RE: [SY] Jai Shri Mataji - Mayank here

Mayank I think we're finally getting somewhere in this discussion. If you  and your Sahaj siblings really have had the success that you claim,  surely you would be interested in having this verified by independent  observers.

I'm willing to help set up a study in India for your convenience. You must know that if Sahaja Yogis were able to demonstrate vibratory  awareness to the scientific community, the world community of seekers  would take an immediate interest in Sahaja Yoga.

Hoping for a positive response from you, Simon Dicon

2265 From: Jeffrey Leow  <jleow21@h...>  Date: Fri May 4, 2001 5:51pm Subject: Rejoice

Rejoice, Those who've left SY - you are now free - rejoice. Those  still in SY - you must have found it - rejoice.

Those still in doubt - this site will NEVER resolve your doubts.  Either you are the "doubting Thomas" Christ spoke of, or you are the  smart one, about to become free - rejoice. JL    2266 From: Karl Wilson  <karlhwilson@y...>  Date: Sat May 5, 2001 1:50am Subject: Re: [SY] The Crux of the Matter! (version 2)

crux 1 SY is based on a false premise (along with the rest of civilization). That premise is that humanity is the pinnacle of creation, that everything on Earth is made for human consumption, that all we have to do is become saints and everything will be ducky, and that in order to become saints we need to be saved from our inherent flaws by some entity who has created the whole scenario.

I see no good reason to believe that this is true. For 3 million  years we have been humans. (approximately 50,000 human lifespans) For ten thousand years some of us have chosen to believe this false  premise. (approximately 150 human lifespans)

We are quite possibly incorrect in this belief.

crux 2 SY doctrine states that we need to become our own gurus is order to answer any questions we may have concerning existence or what have you. SY then turns around and fills our heads with everything that is "true". It is like teaching children to paint by giving them a nice painting we have done. Less messy that way, you know. *** If Mataji wants to be god, that's okay with me. She certainly is  clever. If you want to worship her as god, fine. We all like euphoria. But I know a chickadee who seems just as much god as anyone else. We worship each other sometimes for the fun of it. Love, Karl    2268 From: satyakikhoj@y...  Date: Sat May 5, 2001 6:12am Subject: Yet another Mataji

Another one claiming to be adi-shakti, jagat janini, primordial  energy, "MOTHER" well, the discourses seem awfully familiar. http://www.manavdharam.org/mata_ji.html   2269 From: FJ Shepherd  <fjs_100@h...>  Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:00am Subject: Re: [SY] Yet another Mataji

I wonder how many more there are? There is also Mother Meara. She is  much younger though. What would one do if two or more divine mothers  started criticizing one another over who is the correct one? Would  true believers merely say: "Such is Maya."

Those "messiahs to be" should be envious of the Eastern peoples. It  is nothing to claim divinity since "guru is god." However, in the  West, we have that separation complex concerning the divine and the  created world. We are all true gnostics at heart in the west. FJS

2270 From: Darren Elsbury  <dazzinoz@y...>  Date: Sat May 5, 2001 3:52pm Subject: wake up ! or DREAM ON

Dear Mayank If you have a problem with the content and quallity of the responses,  then  you should consider the source. If you and all of your seekers  (suckers) believe that mataji is a God, could you please offer us  more than a dial beeping on a VEGA machine as proof. and please don't  use pathetic insults like 'anti-shakti'for people who refuse to  swallow your delusions. It reveals how desperate and shallow you and  your beliefs really are.

Mayank, spare us from the frustration you feel from not being able to  recruit enough suckers into your wacky family and make mommy happy. WAKE UP! or dream on.   

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