Discussion of Sri Mataji's Behavior

Hello everyone !

Nathalie, emeltee, Odysseus, simon, frank, miguel (and all the other  wonderful people i haven't mentioned) (& jedi too), i would like to  thank all of you for sharing your honest opinions on this forum. A while back jedi had questioned the reason for some of us being  anonymous.

It took me a while to comprehend the breadth of the answer, but to  sum it up, all of us fear being judged, mostly by other human beings  (alas not so much by god almighty). Also, even though SY on the  surface discourages this, we all have been in SY for too long,  examined it too closely to know that SYs judge each other all the  time (how many times i've heard various leaders mention the  various "catches" in some person in the collective). SM herself does  this all the time (but she is GOD & mahamaya, so she is allowed).

To come back to the point, the relative anonymity of this forum gives  me (and i am sure more people like me) the courage to speak our mind  without the fear of being judged.

I joined sahaja six years ago in the hope that it would bring some  semblence of sanity to our "world gone crazy" . Without going into  details, i would like to say that the most wonderful part of being in  sahaja yoga has been meeting so many nice genuine people. And that  has been the only true joyous experience. The meditations were good  at times, but i never felt the flowing cool breeze, okay, maybe if i  convinced myself that i felt it, i could feel it.

When the "seniors/leaders" asked me to "work" on others, i could  never detect the "catches" in other people, nor did I ever feel the  torrent of cool breeze in shri mataji's presence (okay, again if i  convinced myself, i did). The pujas were too long and the "gift"  giving ceremonies even longer.I felt stupid singing bhajans, and shoe  beating, but i did it neverthless, in the hope that some day I would  make snese of it all (maybe mahamaya was testing me, maybe she is  STILL testing me).

The highlight of sahaja drama (act I scene II) was when i had the  (mis)fortune of attending a "leaders" meeting (sorry but again no  specifics) where they had divided themselves into two groups  (debating on some issue) and one group staged a "walk-out" with the  leader vowing to take the matter before SM.

Cases of leaders misappropriating SY funds in India are rampant,  there was a case in delhi where they wanted to buy collective land  (again i do not know the specifics..would love to hear them though) The last straw on the camels back was SMs comment on the Gujrat  earthquake victims.

The reason she gave was that there were too many false gurus in  gujrat. Anyone who saw the devastation on TV, with children crying,  whole families killed, millions rendered homeless would understand  that this could not be the act of a benevolent god, least of  all a  caring, affectionate mother (ya devi sarva bhuteshu matri roopen  samsthitha, namastasye namastasye nao namah). Oh by the way,  the "false" gurus are all still living (and also exploiting ).

I have a lot more to share, but as they say- that is a new adventure,  a  new story to be told some other time. lots of love -satya

2402 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 1:38am Subject: Re: [SY] Miguel's Washi(ng)Machine

Hello Frank, I was there in December, 1987. I made only the half tour. So when I  arrived at Washi (from Bombay) it was almost empty and I could afford  to have a more detailed view of the precints. Ascetic is not the  convenient word for describing it. A clinic-for-poor-people-of-a-poor  country, is more likely. I was there and met the doctor, unctuous and  eager to please, his russian feminine staff (to my eyes these ladies  looked somewhat crashed in some hectic voluntarism) and some of the  patients.

I don't know what happened to the patients after people from  the Tour dashed in, with a minority of fanatics always eager to start  chanting and dancing, and a bored and sick majority falling to the  floor, or sitting all day long too tired to move. It surprised me  then to see so many people looking so bored, morose and sad. Now I  know why. As for me it was my exciting first international puja. So  everything was brand new.

I strode through the gardens and it amazed me how poorly kept they  were, with rachitic unnameable vegetation hardly growing, under India  glorious blue sky, glowing with crow's wings.That doctor conducted  the morning meditations,about 6 am. He had a most peculiar way of  balancing his head and spine all the time during meditation. Though  stillness is recommended in meditation, as he was the central  authority,I was puzzled by it. Some people imitated his way of  balancing head and spine...

Now (balancing) is something you do before and after meditation, but  not all the time...There was something (peer pressure) that glued you  to that spot. Most people remained there all day long. The reasons  were "o the vibrations here are wonderful" and " we are family  enjoying each others company".

Fortunately I met some daring SYs and we explored Washi, went to  rides to Bombay by train, took the taboo rickshaws ( tabooed by  Mataji), went to see some temples (also tabooed by Mataji) and had a  little adventure being on our own, stalking the real country and a  lot of fun and pleasure (giri) eating in real indian restaurants,  instead of eating that cold sacred food, in military looking tin  plates. (after dramatic one hour or more long queues).

I must also add that I lost some money (travel money of course). A  gentle french SY yogini when she knew it handed me an equivalent sum.  How generous and caring some SYs can be! I met some really great  people there and wish them well. Best, Miguel de C.Henriques

From: "frank miller" <frankmil31@h...> Reply-To: sahaja-yoga@yahoogroups.com To: sahaja-yoga@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SY] Miguel's Washi(ng)Machine Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 13:41:29 -0000

So..you were there too, Miguel! Looks like it was not the same year,  but it was the same place, no doubt! I also wondered why so many  people were sick on the Tour, perhaps, a lack of hygiene, the food,  the lack of facilities...I can't believe it was all a 'clear out' of  chakras. The things we went through, thinking we were helping the  whole world and helping our'ascent'! I also remember, as we walked  in, when we arrived, there was a huge pile of CP's book against the  wall.

We were asked to buy two or three copies each to take in our  suitcases...one for us and the rest to give away or sell. I tried to  read the book but found it full of Indian political intrigues, hardly  relevant to Western countries! But we were dedicated and did it out  of love for SM, who all the time, slowly but surely, followed her diabolical dream of ruling the world....power, more power, money, more money...we were just part of her sick plan.... Greetings   2403 From: Odysseus  <balancedmind@y...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 2:39am Subject: Re: [SY] Miguel's Washi(ng)Machine

Hi Miguel and Frank, I have also made the stop over at Washi. That is one expensive place  for patients! What amazed me was that people who had no apparent  physical illness would check in for treatment. Many people become so  obsessed with the search for vibrations or experiences that they will  do anything for them. That includes throwing lots of money toward a  treatment.

Sahaja yoga was all too willing help these desperate people part with  their money. See ya later, Odysseus

2405 From: Odysseus  <balancedmind@y...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 5:34am Subject: Re: To Odysseus with love....

Natalie, you sure know how to make a guy feel welcome! My story is  likely not too different from everyone elses. I reached a point where  I had given sahaja yoga my complete heart and didn't have anything  real to show for it. Recently I read a message by Patrick about how  he, after leaving sahaja yoga, remembered the reason why he fell in  love with his wife in the first place. I kind of felt the same thing - I remembered and revisited all the things I used to like so much but  didn't do while I was in sahaja yoga. It was the first time I think I  understood what an identity crisis is! It was like learning all about  myself again. It took a little while, but now I feel like myself  again.

This list is a cool place to meet people who are going through the  same thing. I'd like to hear about everyone elses stories too. Until later,   2406 From: barry.clay  <barry.clay@n...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 10:42am Subject: Warm welcome Odysseus

Firstly a warm welcome to you Odysseus,I think that name is just  great! keep the flow of your heart rendering thoughts heading towards  these columns and you will surely help many others.   The many memories of the Washi clinic from you all prompt me to add  that I knew of a lovely old fellow called 'Cyril' (anyone remember  him dear soul?) who once went there with another SY member from the  Midlands collective, a fund was set up to send him there as he had  much physical pain and problems in his life and it was considered  that a visit to the clinic would be of benefit to him,however the  effects of the long journey alone did him no good and although it was  considered at the time that the visit had been beneficial to him,his  health slowly deteriorated not long after and he passed away sadly  not long after I left SY.

Many people who had been to the clinic apeared at first to benefit  only to eventually go down hill shortly afterwards,I always suspected  that the conditions were pretty awful out there and yet another ploy  to gain more more money for SM, one thing that I understand was that  you were told that even if you entered the clinic thinking you were  not ill in any way you would be warned that you must realise that you  had problems and surrender to Shri Mataji who had a list of all those  present in the clinic at any given time so she would give them her  vibrations and attentions.

We believed so much of these stories at the time only to find out  later of there true worth,this constant fear of non conformity within  Sahaja Yoga is now sickening to me and I now realise that it plays on  the susceptibility of human nature to believe the apparent  charismatic charms of a person of dubious credentials and of cunning  behaviour.

It has been said on many occasions that SM is creating a new race of  people,but to what end? the most puzzling thing to me is her constant  appetite for more money despite her age, for what benefit is there to  purchasing yet more chatels and property in the later years of her  life except to enlarge her already massive estate?   I believe that the real seekers of truth are you out there,if it had  not been for the powers of the internet and of the means of mass  electronic communication then we would have probably still been  chained to the feet of Mataji,forearmed with the magic keyboard we  can expose the truth and the true power of our love towards each  other in helping our common cause and aims simply to not become the  slaves to the unknown,sleep well my friends knowing your conscience  is perfectly clear.                                                                        Barry Clay.

2407 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 4:27pm Subject: Suffering and Redemption/Cloning

Reading Em's true remark on how staying in Sahaja was/is considered  more difficult than walking away made me think about the following: First of all, having problems and enduring them is considered as a  sign that'things are working out', that you are tested, and the  higher the suffering, the higher you are 'progressing'( another  expression subtly implying that you are no good to start with...)

Secondly, all religions and cults look upon suffering as redemption. To be cleansed and 'punished'in your body and soul is a necessary  step. You are considered as a special person who does not mind any  sacrifice. I remember as a child, going to confession, inventing sins  and anxiously waiting for the priest to bless me and telling me how  many prayers I had to recite to be forgiven by God...

Well, in Sahaja, you are the chosen ones, you don't confess, but you  are saints in the making and you must endure exhausting and expensive  India Tours, endless pujas and mantras,ask for forgiveness from God (SM)who might or might not give you her blessing( depending on her  mood).Barry wonders why she wants so much money...My guess is that  she has a secret master plan to clone 'her children'...lots of  obedient yogis, praising her all over the world, being 'positive'  from morning till evening, saying'it is meant to be', it is 'Her  Will'... And for that, you need a whole network of castles, houses  and hundreds of recruitment meetings and lots of expensive sarees.... Nathalie   2408 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 7:11pm Subject: Tapes/Fainting

People who still worship SM will probably faint when they read  this.... I was so angry when I discovered that I had been deceived  for years, that I threw away all her audio and video tapes(I had a  fair amount...) I believe at the time it was a healthy reaction,  helping me to cope with the grief and also I did not want anybody  else poisoned with her mixed messages/confusing talks, so I felt the  bin was the best place.

But, following Simon's remark about the tapes being evidence, I think  people should hold on to them. She said several times that she was  the one who would save humanity, she said that she was God. Perhaps  put them in the loft or in the basement....

PS: Isn'it nice that people are now telling their stories, it is part  of the healing process and we can all appreciate each other's  experiences, being enriched by them. I still think that Simon has not  forgiven me for calling him macho...perhaps I could knit him an extra  blanket for his delicate knees(see previous posts)? Oooops : I have  just remembered: I can't knit! How about a cyber hug?(all very  proper)... Nathalie PS again: It is difficult to get rid of the anger...Advice would be  welcome, any tip?   2409 From: emeltee54@y...  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: Tapes/Fainting

Hi Nathalie I think you must have been writing this one just as I was looking  back at some of your messages, wondering if you had actually said  what had prompted you to leave SY. I know you've said before, and  again just now, that you discovered that you had been deceived. I  just wondered if any particular event had triggered it. Love from Em.   2410 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Tapes/Fainting

Hello Em! Good question! My wake-up call came when, quite new to the web, I  was 'surfing' the Internet, eagerly typed in 'sahaja yoga', went on  the sahaja-yoga.org site, thinking it was THE site, and discovered  the whole thing! For that, I will be eternally grateful to those who  had the courage to start it! I think seeing the photo where SM is  sitting so close to Rajneesh triggered something in me.

I felt physically sick, something about the way she seemed to be part  of his inner circle, then all the hard financial facts, hidden from  the majority of Sahaja Yogis, and of course all the uncomfortable  situations I had experienced over the years, the nagging doubts which  I kept pushing at the back of my mind. And then reading all the  testimonies of the list, confirming my uneasiness and my worst doubts.

It took a while to sink it. My loyalty to SM kept denying it, but something in me said, look around you: so many people have  been hurt...and my own health declining(but I am now fighting back,  and I am starting to feel better). My self trust is slowly coming  back...but it is hard when the most sacred bond of Mother and Child  has been used that way. Never again will I let anybody control my heart and soul! Thanks EM! Nathalie   2411 From: alex.green@a...  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 9:14pm Subject: My wandering mind

Hi. Great to see the recent injection of vitality into the discussion! Luv all the hugs and stuff - thanks new girls! I used to be devoted  to Mrs Srivastiva and her Sahaja Yoga. I am now devoted to the truth.  To the degree that she and SY embody the truth I remain devoted to  them (ie not). However, it took me some time to realise that truth  and Mrs S are often very much divergent. Realising this allows a  previously "committed" SY to develop some detachment to observe  what's happening in SY. It seems to be such a fascinating  mixture of light and darkness.

Supposing she is the adi shakti...In allowing myself to be neither a  believer or disbeliever in her, it would seem it makes little  difference whether she is a divine incarnation not. Like most people  who have adhered to SY, I experienced and enjoyed what was very much  a liberation of sorts. However, I suppose that given the highly  questionable activities within SY, for which Mrs S must be in some  way held responsible, I have come to a point of seeing that the one  who liberates is often simultaneously the one one who confines  or "imprisons".

Two sides of the one coin - just depends on one's point of view.  (Writing this, I find myself feeling like Little Red Riding Hood,  pointing at the grotesque and saying "my grandma, what BIG  teeth you have!".) I've come to the understanding if Mrs S were  indeed the adi shakti she would not be a stakeholder in the "play" of  Sahaja Yoga. Indeed, she and SY seem simultaneiously to contain  expressions of great light and darkness both of which manifest very  much in and through her devotees.

The adi shakti would be an expression of totality, neither light nor  dark yet containing both. What we find in SY is consistent with this. One of the greatest expressions of darkness is attachment and the  worst form of attachment is attachment to darkness itself. Her  devotees are, without question, blindly attached to her, like infants  to their mother.She may indeed be the adi shakti, but that doesn't  mean she isn't setting a big trap for the unwitting - her blind  devotees. Mother knows best!

Of course, she could be not the adi shakti and do exactly the same  thing. What a dilemma.Just a thought (damn proud to be thinking  again!) Alex

2412 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 9:54pm Subject: Washi(ng) Machine

Welcome to you Barry, hope you'll carry on being alive and kicking!  Due to a problem with the server it's only now that I'm reading  yours, Nathalie's, Emelete's and Odysseus' refreshing messages. I just remembered the name of the unctuous doctor, the petty tyrant  guru of the Washi(ng) Machine: Rao was his name. Hope I'll remember  the title of his book. One was supposed to buy it, as it was in some  way the scientific seal of approval over SY.

As you remember SY's claims about being able to cure almost all  diseases (I don't remind leper being mentioned) were a significant "part and parcel" (remember these 2 words together?) of SYs emergence  as a fully equipped new saviour religion. The Washi clinic, then,  appears as a necessary corollary of these claims. It had to work,  absolutely, and be a factory of chain-miracles.

It's said officially,that Mataji once was a medical student (how far  did she proceed one, two, three or more years...was not disclosed)  and she had to leave due to economical/political reasons. I wonder  why she did not conclude later on her studies? Any person with  a strong intent on concluding his/her studies is able to do it, why  not her, the Supreme Godess?

I mention this point also because her first appearances on the guru  scene were as a healer, like "curandero", not as the Supreme Ruler of  the Universe. Only later she evolved to guru status, and then went on  her way to become some Incarnation, and finally the Incarnation of  Incarnations. I just mention this because it is a step by step process and progress, from frustrated medical student (and apparently sucessful political young student political leader and political  martyr - I still have to check if that's true, or nothing but one more typical pink version of the young years of the Mighty Leader) to  supreme Doctor of Doctors.

Anyway what matters is the "healing" quality with which she presented  herself. She can be fairly included in the band-width of every new- ageism, all promising perfect health, physical, mental and spiritual. The Washi(ng) Machine is a most important piece in her power-greedy chessboard. It had to function perfectly... it had to be excellence on earth, a model for all clinics of the "future race"...but the plain  truth is that it seems a charlatan's petty trick, unable to cure  whatever disease.

As I said before if Washi worked there would be 0ne, two, three... "n" Washis by now, all overcrowded with SY's and non SYs patients. Now dr. Rao in the current "purges" going on in this SY's "year of  exposure" is out. The technique of finding scape-goats, no doubt, is  finely applied by SY's nomenklatura. Did one of the terrible  russian ladies became his sucessor? Best wishes, Miguel de C.Henriques

2413 From: quasarx@u...  Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 10:21pm Subject: Can't join the group for a while .. am blocked @ work

its a good exercise i suppose 2 read, listen & stand back. unfortunatelly @ work they have strict policies against many things  webby-wise .. and they daily blocking sites, keywords, etc. yahoo! groups was banned aeons ago - now they banned anything that contains  the word "webmail" .. so can't access my sahaja-group- emails no more. ok long explanation of why i cant join the mailing list but from a  cyber-café.

~~ But now 4 some real issues ~~ First it saddens me 2 hear that Cyril passed away. He was a wonderful  character, I think every1 loved the guy. He was very old however, so  its difficult to say - oh it was because of Washi. Having said  that .. I have heard & seen ppl goin there, coming back worse.

I hated Washi, cos it was giving me nightmares. But then i suppose i  was clearin out? hehe .. A number of yogis agreed that the vibrations  there was awful.I dunno what kind of yogis ppl hanged around with,  cos me friends they were pretty honest. India-Tour?  'Oh man, that  was really bad this year, the vibes were pretty foul, shud have  stayed home'

I'm still sittin in the fence .. but looks like the credibility of SY  and SM is begin to worsen daily. What kept my faith - was the  undeniable experiences I had. I'm not one into theorizin everythin  but am sure that even our unconscious in blind faith makes anythin  happen. I am sure other religion/cults/whatever .. members, ex- members have mind-blowin experieces .. manifestin @ a physical level  (possibly scientifically proven).

Its what is OBVIOUS that should be the key to tell the truth from  falsehood. SA-AKSHAT .. ie before everyone's eye. So before  everyone's eyes .. we have bad bad things. SM promised of better health, ok u glow in the beggining, but u become more weakling &  vulnerable. SM promised of joy, peace, contentment - I had those but  didnt last for long .. Sometimes I suffer like most in life but in SY  the sufferin could have been way much greater intensified. I just dont know ....

I took in a lot of what SM preached. Wether she practices it or not -  its another thing. Some of it helped me a lot. This sounds almost  offensive, specially to the people that suffered  loads intensively -  and i do feel for them (the fear, the guilt, the paranoia, the panic- attacks) ...... but if I had to live this life again, I'd write down  on my lil destiny tablet - that I would come to Sahaja Yoga. Only  thing I regret is that I havent left earlier. 5 years would be ok -  not 9 years.

Someone in this forum said - religion makes good people better, bad  people worse. Well, im not gonna show off sayin Im good - cos Im not  perfect (loads of not-good things in me which I hope one day goes  away) but in my naivity I did grow (or feel Ive grown) whilst in SY.  Another thing, once you join SY - its very unlikely you will join  another cult. And if it had to be a cult, SY would do. .. "Better the  devil, you know"

With SY - I discovered cultures. With SY - I had spiritual  experiences (illusory or not) With SY - I visited other countries and  met a lot of wonderful people ..  never mind the weird sad ones [I'm not defendin SY here, and OK u can get that with anyother  religion, am just stating]

With SY - I became very artistic, renaissance- like, learnt music .. I mean maybe many ppl disagree but the songs in  Sahaja Yoga - they were pretty mind blowin - indian songs and  melodies [not the western crappy stuff. Someone gave me that CD -  Blossom Time .. haHahaHA !!!!]So I learnt, I've grown, and ok mid-way  started to fall.Me and my mother we had lil arguments - not fiery  tho - bout SM and SY. She couldnt accept a person like SM was the Adi  Shakti. She saw that while in SY, I kinda became better, more relaxed  and at peace ..... then one day I said to my mother "Look, its ok, no  need for us to discuss - We will find out is SM and SY are true. Time  will tell. So Im not bothered anymore" And this is what I think its  happening here.

SY that judged so many people: "SINNER SINNER - Ekadesha Rudra will  pulverize u!!!" .. is being judged. SM is being judged. Time will tell. But a feeling is - looks like it was an illusion  after all. Aren't illusions great? Only illusions can make someone go  really high really fast (but then the fall .. yeah i keep forgettin  that part)I dont regret at all my life in SY, even not being the  truth. Cos I got many things from it, I did learn & grown and after  leaving learnt more & grown again (specially on how not to be so  quaint and disrespectful to outsiders)

Last thing - Nathalie...I know its hard to forgive. I know this  sounds cliché .. but even though u felt cheated and got muchbad  experiences and suffering. Think of it as an experience. Which you  are much wiser for it. Are you gonna run to another guru? Or another  cult? I'm sure you also had some good experiences in SY. And met some  wonderful people. And learnt or acquired few things. I see it as an  experience. Luckily in my case it wasnt all soul-destroying. I dont  hate SY, nor do I love it.I feel slightly embarrased something i  believed so firmly is turning out to be so shoddy, so crass, so  stupid.I feel bad, a "master" who I loved so much, is being exposed  like that.

But the truth will shine. And things *should* told and exposed. But instead of hating it - I'll just ignore it and let go .. slightly  disappointed. ** Nathalie, if you hate something ,that thing is still  affecting/destroying u .. not-to-hate is to win. Im sure in time, the  anger, pain and frustration will fade. You are alive, hopefully well,  and so very free! **~~ Ok I wrote way too much 4 2day ~~ every1 keep postin & encourage every1 to join members or ex- members alike ~~~~ you who is reading this. we need your thoughts and  experiences too!!  ~~~~ b g00d take care ~ Quasar ~   2415 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 1:44am Subject: Re: [SY] My wandering mind

Hello Alex, Where does come the idea that the Adi-Shakti is "a mother"? I could  not see it in the traditional sacred books of India, The Vedas, the  Shastras, and so on. To consider the Adi-Shakti "a mother" I think  it's a christianized concept. The emergence of several matajis  (feminine counterpart of babajis, baba meaning father, and ji an  endearing diminutive ) occurs in the late XIX century, and of course  carries its momentum until "our" mataji. This title - Mataji -  corresponds to a relatively new acquisition for the vast, baroque and  immense indian pantheón.

Then there's some forced equivalence between adi-shakti and mataji.  One can be a mataji (a motherly being, one quality shared by tibetan  lamas) without being an Adi-Shakti. There were several matajis in the  late XIX century, and there are some matajis now. The only one  claiming that she's both Mataji and adi-shakti is "our" mataji.

Knowing her greed, her pathological need of accumulation of titles,  names and material goods that is not a surprise.You speak about "sort  of liberations" SY induced in you. What sort of? You hit the target  when you refer to the one who liberates as the one who imprisons you. This is the crucial point. SY gives you the sky but erases your  wings. Or perhaps SY gives you wings but erases the sky.

As psycholgists know this is a "double-bind" situation. With one hand  I caress you and later and at the same time with the other hand I hit  you. This is the current practice in SY. First you're spetial, "A  Saint", "A realized being", "A citizen of the Kingdom of God", very  soon - if not offered in the same parcel -

You're "bhootish", "possessed", "with catches", etc. This creates a  divided mind. This split mind (believing itself self-realized and full of catches at the same time)battles against itself and this  constitutes schizofrenia, at least some form of schizoid traits. It's  ironic that an organisation who speaks of a holistic being as its  ideal can't but induce the advent of fragmented beings, double-binded  people.

Recovery from a cult is not a matter of days. 2 and a half years  after quitting I'm still recovering. Though it's true that just after  leaving you start to find a true fresh space to move on, the space of  your real Self, your own healing Self. Which allows you the use of  your intellect and is adverse to the mass-suicide of thinking. Greetings, Miguel de C.Henriques   2417 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 2:35am Subject: A few thoughts on some questions and more fire and water

Ganapatipule, Dec 1997 (fragment from diary) two tragic events in the land of Ganesha. The red earth of  Ganapatipule witnessed the drowning of a young girl in its calm  shore. Everybody was shocked. How come under the attention of  Mataji could one possibly drown? Mataji in her Puja discourse blamed  vehemently her parents. A big fire started on the roof of the  assembly hall 2 days before the marriage ceremonies. Flames  propagated to the Pendall and burned it down.

Many people lost their suitcases and sleeping bags. We were told by  some leaders not to mention this incident in our countries. Fire in  the land of Ganesha? People were asking themselves how can this  happen in the land of Ganesha? Well it seems that a simple short- circuit is more powerful than Ganesha's benevolence. Or was Ganesha  kicking out her fake mother show?

Many people worked day and night and managed to install a new roof  over the Assembly hall. Where, after the marriages (arranged on the  spot, over the knee, by some yawning leaders - though the married  couples thought that Mataji herself supervised the whole procedures),  Mataji would throw rupees (collected from who?) to the musicians. Water, fire, music and a young corpse asking why. Miguel de C.Henriques   2418 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 3:24am Subject: To Quasar

Your advice is very precious to me, Quasar: you are right : I must let go of the anger, otherwise it means she wins. It might take a bit of  time, but I am working on it. I must remember the good moments, and  understand that I am, in some ways, stronger. It is a shame you  cannot use the computer at work, but keep posting at week-ends anyway. By the way, I was on a site where they talked about universes and  stars, and your name came up: does Quasar mean 'galaxy'? Love and Regards Nathalie   2420 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 3:35am Subject: To Alex and Anthony

Thanks to Alex for complementing the girls, we are flattered... I feel a wandering mind is what SM wants, as Miguel says , a divided  mind, so that we 'surrender'. But perhaps you are right to observe  and wait for the unfolding of the plot.... Thanks to Anthony for  frightening us re another cult, it is an eye-opener, we need it.  Perhaps one day, all those who have been exploited in Sahaja will  also get together and fight a legal battle. But a lot of us  are still under her spell, and others are in the recovery process... Love Nathalie

2428 From: alex.green@a...  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 6:34pm Subject: Medical research in Australia

Word has it we can very soon expect publication in a medical journal  of research by one Dr Ramesh Manocha, a committed (some would say  fanatical) devotee of Mataji and Sahaja Yoga. I understand he has  achieved favorable (ie pro-SY) results in his research into the use  of SY as therapy for various ailments. This should go a long way to  establishing mainstream credibility for SY and it's goddess Dr Mataji. I'm told he already has interviews cued up with major national TV in  Australia to trumpet his findings.

Will Manocha be open about the fact the he has been funded to the  tune of approx AU$70K through the Sydney Royal Women's Hospital,  where he works, who would no doubt be expecting his research to be  objective and unbiased? (oh dear!)

Will Manocha volunteer in his presentations of his findings that he  and his SY colleagues worship the feet of Mataji (or a photograph of  them), including washing them and decorating them with flowers and  red pigment, and that this is the real culture of SY to which he so  avidly trying to attract newcomers?

If the deception and withholding of information continues, I'm sure  it's all for the best possible cause (which makes it OK).Oh what a  wicked web we weave, doctor!Yours in undifferentiated bliss Alex

  2430 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 6:59pm Subject: To Barry

Barry, I really enjoy your late night messages, which sum up very well the topics discussed here, and how we all feel about the open-hearted  exchange unfolding under our very eyes!(have you got anything in mind  when you say there is a pattern emerging? I am intrigued...)

As I read your latest message, I tried to go back in time and  realised that SM's plan is a cold and calculated move: get some drug  addicts to start with, some lost hippies(my heart goes out to them),  rescue them (a lot of main stream religions do the me:  they 'save 'drug addicts, 'save' homosexuals'etc... etc...):they will  be loyal for ever, having seen 'the light', their lives improve to  start with.

Then get some doctors to ive a respectable front to the organisation,  then get some builders, so that they are cheap labour.Buy lots of  property with the money of the disciples and then go into politics  and Bob is your Uncle! The subject of photos is a massive topic: some  are fake, some are real(there might be such a thing as a Kundalini  energy and it shows on photos), may be it is a neutral energy , and  it can be used for good or for evil??? Love Nathalie     2431 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 7:16pm Subject: To Jason

Jason, your comments have encouraged me to think that my anger is  reasonably normal and I am reassured: you seem to have gone through  the same grieving process. I must hold on to the fact that the anger  is a temporary one. Did you do a therapy or are you a therapist? Could you tell us more about your book on Sahaja:did you do it for  yourself only or did it get published? I am sure it would help a lot  of us to try and focus on the good times and see the positive in  anotherwise painful experience!

You also sound as if you had a spectacular exit! Love Nathalie PS: I am aware that I am sending an awful lot of messages to the  list, and I suddenly feel quite embarassed about it, but I need it  very much at the moment! Get a life I hear you say!

2432 From: frank miller  <frankmil31@h...>  Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 11:37pm Subject: Groups

I was reading an article about groups(self-support groups) and these  are the criteria they gave, before choosing one... ********************* Can each person speak and really be listened to often enough to feel  an integral part of the group?

Do you look forward to meetings as something for you, not just one  more obligation?

Can you be honest inside it(be angry, vulnerable for ex)?

Does the group honour the departure of old members? Do you feel accepted as you are?

Does being part of the group lead you to independent action outside  it? *************************** Talk about being dysfunctional...I think sahaja is the most  dysfunctional group there is! Regards Frank     2434 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 5:57am Subject: Re: [SY] To Miguel the author

Dear Nathalie, Thanks for your kindness but in this list I'm just an ordinary ex- member, battling to retrieve his soul. Anyway to answer your question  one of my books has been translated from  portuguese into italian. A  young Irish writer wants to translate another  one from portuguese  into english.

I don't really know when fiction ends and non-fiction starts. For  instance during the forties, I suppose, Colin Wilson wrote a great  book, inspired by the mad genius Lovecraft, called The Mind  Parasites. Today Meme's theory (it studies Mind virus) validates the  fundamentalpremises of this book as non-fiction. Also if some years  ago somebody described in a book that dr.godess followers were  supposed to drink, ecstatically, the water wash of her feet, I'd say  that's fiction!

Dr.Godess, who's quite illiterate by the way, did not really forbid  to read books. She disowned books' importance, saying that they were "frown frown" for "intellectuals". She recommended heavy nationalists and moralists like Kipling, and in my opinion total bores as Kahil  Gilbrain and Agatha Christie. There was a list of recommended SY-safe  books. Quite short, by the way. (I agree with one of her choices,  though, William Blake).

I'm glad you followed your rebellious inner voice and carried on  reading! Books will remain one of the best tools against tyrants. And  they know it, that's why Hitler made autos-de-fé with books. And  Ferdinand Marcos, and all dictators and totalitarian systems forbid  them. You're right. Perhaps I'm a bit hard with myself. But I should  have known better! Before SY I was a Yoga practionner (well I  practiced Hatha, Raja,Mantra, and Tibetan TantraYoga (had  initiations).

I Joined SY to experience more fully the chakra system. I was also  practicing Zazen. One of my masters (Hashimoto Roshi) said " One must  study all goods dharmas". At first sight SY appeared as a "good  dharma" so I decided to study it fully and became fully involved. (I  don't like to do things half-way, or just take a little taste of it  and pretend that I know the whole thing).

There was a period during which I sincerely believed Mataji was a  real master (I never considered her to be The Godess). In a weird way  I was right... she was a real master manipulator. Twisting a delicate  instrument, "the subtle system", to fit her objectives.

(as a footnote) As I wrote this last line I felt an upsurge of good  Kundalini energy. I Carry on practicing zazen meditation, aikido and  lately begun to practice Tai-Chi. We all perhaps learned the hard way  a lesson : never trust gurus, not even gurus antigurus... Yeah, tis nice to be normal, a regular sentient being, nothing  spetial..free  to roam and run a mile from puja worms, and eat french  cheese... The undignified evercurious mouse, Miguel de C.Henriques   2436 From: barry.clay  <barry.clay@n...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 7:08am Subject: Mataji and meat eating

One of the things that puzzled many Sahaja Yogis/Yoginis was the her  attitude towards the eating of meat,a lot of cults ban meat eating  but Shri Mataji I am told did in fact eat meat herself and despite  what we are told ate considerable amounts of food.

She also said some very strange things about the Mad Cows disease  asking us what all the fuss about! the questions about the general  consumption of meat in SY have not been talked about much so perhaps  someone out there can enlighten us as to her policies on this? Barry Clay.(meat eater)    2437 From: barry.clay  <barry.clay@n...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 7:31am Subject: When is a SY meeting not a SY meeting?

When I was in SY I was approached about taking some meetings at a  different venue during the day,I postered,booked a hall at my own  expense and eventually after a few weeks got a nice little meditation  class going,the local leader came along for a couple of weeks but  eventually stopped coming ,during this period for what reasons I  cannot remember I did not attend the local collective meetings but  carried on with my own weekly sessions,much to my surprise I was then  asked to stop the meetings full stop which came as a surprise and I  questioned why?

The leader said that because I had not attended the local collective  for a few weeks the meetings were void and were not Sahaja Yoga! Iwas  amazed and disappointed at this attitude as a nice little class was  developing,so the question that I ask is when does a SY meeting cease  to be a SY meeting,did my little additional class not count or was  there some jealousy creeping in as to its success? I encountered many  strange things such as this in SY it was just as if you were being  stopped from stepping outside some protocol whether on a mere local  or national level.

I remember also that DL requested that all activities that peoiple  wanted to do for SY be reported to him before going ahead following a  stand being set up at one of those mind and body shows which had been  set up without his permission. On the other hand I was also told at  one point that anyone could start a meeting as it was not the domain  of any one person,such contradictions of policy seem to add further  elitist attitudes in an organisation said to be soo... pure.                                                                      Barry Clay.      2438 From: barry.clay  <barry.clay@n...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 8:10am Subject: Sahaja Yoga-full circle?

Nathalie asks about my comments on a pattern emerging in SY,well as we all know a big thing was always made about the age of darkness (was  it Kali Yuga?) and the fact that nobody could hide behind its shadows  and all evil would be exposed,I did believe that one day those that  had cheated mankind whether it be politicians,crimes to humanity etc  would indeed be exposed,I am sure that many of my colleagus also  thought this made good sense at the time but never associated it with  Sahaja Yoga itself and its decline.

Some months ago this group went very quiet and some sarcastic  comments came through from those still serving SM ,it was just like  the lull before the storm as the group gained momentum as witnessed  of late and further horror storires exposed of peoples experiences in  SY,so what was once the prophesy spoken about so much in Sahaja Yoga  has now turned full circle and the ability to hide the truth has  failed them,they can no longer hide behind the shadows of deceit and  corruption that we have all witnessed first hand.                                                                        Barry Clay.       2439 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [SY] Mataji and meat eating

Hello Barry, I for one enjoy your well informed and structured messages. And yes, Mataji eats meat. When she was staying here in Portugal at Seteais  Palace ( one of our most luxurious hotels, once a royal palace) all  the S.yoginis and yogis were in a constant turmoil with cooking  matters.

Special food, difficult to find in market-places and supermarkets,was  requested. For instance Lamb chops. Seems trivial, is'nt it?. But the  Lamb chops had perforce to be from England. She only ate Lamb chops  from England, said with firm finality one of the top-dogs. I don't  know how,one daring portuguese S.yogi managed to find,after hours of  search,some English lamb chops. He had to phone the british embassy,  where the cook was not available, then the consulate (same story),  etc.

During her stay, once,by mistake,I entered her salon rose (Seteais has a mixture of romantic and rococo style). She was ferociously eating a  lunch consisting of ten main dishes at least (and several dessert  dishes). No wine,that's true. Well,to enjoy food that's allright for  me, I've got gargantuan and  gourmet friends and it's up to everyone  to eat to their heart's desire.

But they delight in food and don't trumpet proclamations to the world  at large chanting the virtues of fasting and eating only plain boiled  potatoes. And they like to share. I remembered mataji words -"you  should be satisfied with a plain boiled potato." And I remembered,  not far away from Seteais, people, wrapped in blankets, queueing to  get a cold dish, with a meagre portion.

There she was eating like a sultan, alone, voraciously, at 3 o clock  pm, inside a cozy, warm salon. I was lunch at 3 o'clock because just  like many other times she had been sleeping all morning, she who  advised people to wake up early. All right, there was always an  excuse. She slept badly because she took some coffee. Coffee was a no- no stuff (Terrible for the liver). Then another excuse "She drank  coffee because she had diarrhoea". Next day she woke up very late  again and the excuse was "she had a toothache."

I went to many international pujas and every time Mrs.Srivastava  waked up late, there was some excuse "Oh she stayed late at night  with guests", and of course there was a turmoil in the kitchen... I entered Cabella kitchen several times and there was always a  frantic, and frankly paranoid turmoil, with Indian S.yoginis top- dogging catching westerners...and no vibes, descending from the  sacred sleeping room, except the big brother vibe that whatever  you're doing is probably something wrong...at least that was my  impression of these poor, voluntarily enslaved ladies, still learning  to walk inside a somewhat always twisted or falling saree...

But b'Gad! the plain, unadorned truth is that she eats loads and  loads and has to sleep it over! Bulimia is another trait of the  psychopath, who is ruthless, cunning, patient and sweet. Well may you ejoy your meat whether it be canned, raw, bleue, cold or  boiling! And if we were antropophags I'd tell you where to find a  groovy tasty mama. Cheers, from the unpalatable delicious Shri Ice Devatta Cream

2441 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 10:03am Subject: Re: [SY] When is a SY meeting not a SY meeting?(Barry)

That's control, Barry. Plain mind control from the hierarchy. The  hierarchy is Her. The rank and file only has to obbey. Are they  taking intelligent initiatives? Dangerous. Dangerous. They might  overturn Us.Only the Hierarchy knows what is SY and what's not. When  it suits Us your actions are SY, when it does'nt, even if they are  the same actions that pleased Us, they are not SY. Nail this in your  heart chakra. Learn to be an obedient convenient schizoid. Thank you.  May God bless ya. Have you given ten pounds for the silver  chandelier? Youre catching. Shri Boiling Chakravartin Eat-meater-meeting   2442 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 10:16am Subject: Re: [SY] Sahaja Yoga-full circle?

Well Barry, you know that some of the Hierarchs were sure, and so they told Mrs.Godess, that we were being paid by the Catholic Church or by  some rabid anticult organisation?

But we're all independent franc-tireurs, mes chers messieurs! No  organisation, no moralisitc master manipulator fuhrer-guru, no  dollars, yeah no shri shree dollars, just diamond minds and pure  hearts, that's why this forum works. Amen     2443 From: Jason T. Copeland  <anandamurti@u...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: [SY] Medical research in Australia

In the matter of Ramesh's research, alex.green@a... wrote:

A: Word has it we can very soon expect publication in a medical  journal of research by one Dr Ramesh Manocha, a committed (some would  say fanatical) devotee of Mataji and Sahaja Yoga. I'm told he already  has interviews cued up with major national TV in Australia to trumpet  his findings.

Jason: Publicity is already under way. There was an article in the  Brisbane (Australia) Sunday Mail on 1st July, in the Life pull-out  section. News Ltd does have a website at news.com.au/ - I didn't do a  thorough exploration, but they may have it there. Yours etc. Jason

2444 From: Jason T. Copeland  <anandamurti@u...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: [SY] To Jason

Gday Nathalie.

I "did" therapy, in the sense that I went to therapy sessions with a psychologist, for several years, dealing both with childhood trauma  and with the complex of motives that went into making me a seeker and  a naive one. I have also done a lot of reading in psychology and spirituality and the common boundary of those intertwined fields, and some therapeutic training. I will do some more as part of my degree studies.

N: Could you tell us more about your book on Sahaja:did you do it for  yourself only or did it get published? I am sure it would help a lot  of us to try and focus on the good times and see the positive in  anotherwise painful experience!

Jason: Well, originally I started writing it to make sense of the  whole thing for my own understanding, and it sort of took the form of  a 200,000-word introductory talk, as it were, on SY. I did try to get  it published, but no go so far, except for a brief stay on a book- publishing website which is now defunct. But, I guess I could try to  email it in attached file format to anyone who wants to have a look -  bearing in mind that my perspective now is somewhat different!

I also did a much shorter presentation on Mrs. Srivastava and SY at university (I'm reading for an MA in Religion) which helped me clarify my ideas too. If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to email them to individuals - not to the group as a mass mailing, they'd probably jam  up the email servers if I did that.

N: You also sound as if you had a spectacular exit!

Jason: I had a wife who was an absolute fanatic, and she used to go  absolutely crazy - screaming at me, walking out for weeks on end - if  I so much as indicated that it is possible to think differently from  her on some issues. Eventually, she accused me (wrongly, at the time)  of having an affair, and walked out for good. I breathed a sigh of  relief, and then went ahead and had the affair. In the end, it didn't  last, but the local group became very judgemental about me, took my  ex-wife's side, and really stayed that way. And in due course, the  immoveability of their judgementality was a large element in killing  off my dream of SY as the ultimate healing trip.   2445 From: emeltee54@y...  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 6:30pm Subject: Re: meat eating

As I recall, Shri Mataji's advice regarding meat was that you should  only eat the meat of animals that are smaller than you. The reason  had something to do with the larger fibres (eg. from beef) being hard  on the gums, (and not easily digested..??).

** Didn't hear of any comments made re mad cow disease, but maybe it  was to do with the belief that humans shouldn't eat beef anyway. I  shouldn't really comment on this, though, as I don't know.

The main thing in SY with any food, is/was that it should relate to  balancing your subtle system, ie. if you are right-sided, eat less  protein and more carbohydrates, and vice versa if you are left- sided. Of course, as with most things in SY, it is a lot more complex  than that, but this is just an example.

I also remember being told that wherever Shri Mataji was, her diet  often reflected what the local collective needed for clearing  imbalances or problems. I believed it at the time… Em (Eats Meat - including the occasional steak with mushroom sauce!)

2446 From: frank miller  <frankmil31@h...>  Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 7:51pm Subject: Re: Meetings and Leaders

I think Miguel is spot on when he talks about leaders. In particular  local leaders should not be too intelligent. As Barry said also, if  they have too many good ideas and take too many initiatives, they are  a threat to the whole system which runs from the top down: the  controlled information, the secret money matters, or even ways of  presenting sahaj:

everything is censored by the national leader, who , himself, is a  puppet in the hands of SM. Are the national leaders totally naive,  totally corrupt or totally brainwashed? Frank     2448 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 0:35am Subject: Re:Meat ,cows and servants...

Barry mentionned the topic of meat. All I know is that SM loves it, in particular the juices(blood..)I once cooked for her and she insisted  we should save them carefully for her. Yes, the Mahakali is fond of  blood and little children...(let's not go there!). Didn't she mention  once that the feed given to cows was bad for them and consequently  for human beings?(anybody switching on the radio would know that!

Hardly a  revelation)... Miguel talked about HHSM's personal habits:  as ladies serving her, we had to do ALL of her laundry by hand and  also her daughters's etc... I felt vaguely uncomfortable about it at  the time, but then I was lost in the devotion and regarded myself as  particularly blessed...Perhaps more stories like these will emerge:  The Goddess on stage versus Mrs S in the everyday life. She is  obviously used to shouting at servants running around for her. And  that is what Sahaja Yogis are:her servants:builders, cooks,  drivers,and lots of accountants...

She did give us some presents: her used handbags, old sarees etc...I  cherished them for years, but guess where they went recently? In the  bin, with her tapes...

To EM: your steak with mushroom sauce appeals to me...I haven't had  any for years, but I might join you very soon! Miguel's steak au  poivre is a strong contestant though...

To Miguel: yes, rushing around in a falling saree is hell!     2449 From: nathalie doe  <nathaliedoe@h...>  Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 0:37am Subject: Spiritual Life after SY?

Thanks to Jason for his invaluable, life-giving comments. Very brave  of him to put up with a fanatical wife and a non-supportive 'local  collective'(most of them are artificial and non-supportive). Good for  him to have moved on, but it does sound as if it is a slow and time  consuming process. A lot of people on the list have taken quite a bit  of time to find their balance again. Miguel mentions he now does  ZaZen, aikido and Tai Chi. At the moment I find the sheer pleasure of  going for brisk walks and no more foot soak, absolute bliss! It would  be nice to hear more stories of spiritual life after SY! Nathalie

2450 From: Miguel Henriques  <migcah@h...>  Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:18am Subject: RE: [SY] keep an open mind, Simon! (to Quasarx)

Dear Quasarx, I appreciate the way you formulate your honest doubts. Leaving a cult  it's no easy matter, it is a real battle, no doubt. Investments ,  emotional, spiritual, etc, have been made. A whole frame of mind,  which at a given time seemed new and promising, now hangs over us.  Somethings still seemto have value, some insights, techniques,  sayings... but then there's the obvious plain psychopatological  everyday life of the Messenger coming into ligth, in sharp contrast  with the Message.

The shouting Mrs Srivastava, keen on having servants/slaves for  herself and family cuts a poor figure as the human guru (and godess)  we idealized, or were led by the nose to idealize. More and more  people will come and tell revealing details about the everyday life  of a too demanding, authoritarian psychopath, profiteering from people's sincere devotion.

And giving them back, as brave Nathalie said, her secondhand bags and  sarees. That's the common behaviour pattern of all rich patron ladies  all over the world: throw the crumbs to your servants.(and your  secondhand goods). We could coin a new proverb : know you guru's  kitchen, you'll know him/her. So it was displayed that she likes  gravies with blood. Hmmmm. The excuse will be, I'm sure, "she's  bloodthirsty Mother Kali eating her mahadeva diet of bhoots and  devils incarnated as animals".

The incarnation concept has been an umbrella under which the  Incarnation reveals him/herself as a common psychopath/dictator. They  add "Incarnations behave in weird ways", so they make take your wife  or your husband or rape/infect the mind of your children with  submissive patterns.I'll try to reply later to your questions. Miguel de C.Henriques

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