Discussion of Sri Mataji's Behavior
Hello everyone !
Nathalie, emeltee, Odysseus, simon, frank, miguel (and all the other wonderful people i haven't mentioned) (& jedi too), i would like to thank all of you for sharing your honest opinions on this forum. A while back jedi had questioned the reason for some of us being anonymous.
It took me a while to comprehend the breadth of the answer, but to sum it up, all of us fear being judged, mostly by other human beings (alas not so much by god almighty). Also, even though SY on the surface discourages this, we all have been in SY for too long, examined it too closely to know that SYs judge each other all the time (how many times i've heard various leaders mention the various "catches" in some person in the collective). SM herself does this all the time (but she is GOD & mahamaya, so she is allowed).
To come back to the point, the relative anonymity of this forum gives me (and i am sure more people like me) the courage to speak our mind without the fear of being judged.
I joined sahaja six years ago in the hope that it would bring some semblence of sanity to our "world gone crazy" . Without going into details, i would like to say that the most wonderful part of being in sahaja yoga has been meeting so many nice genuine people. And that has been the only true joyous experience. The meditations were good at times, but i never felt the flowing cool breeze, okay, maybe if i convinced myself that i felt it, i could feel it.
When the "seniors/leaders" asked me to "work" on others, i could never detect the "catches" in other people, nor did I ever feel the torrent of cool breeze in shri mataji's presence (okay, again if i convinced myself, i did). The pujas were too long and the "gift" giving ceremonies even longer.I felt stupid singing bhajans, and shoe beating, but i did it neverthless, in the hope that some day I would make snese of it all (maybe mahamaya was testing me, maybe she is STILL testing me).
The highlight of sahaja drama (act I scene II) was when i had the (mis)fortune of attending a "leaders" meeting (sorry but again no specifics) where they had divided themselves into two groups (debating on some issue) and one group staged a "walk-out" with the leader vowing to take the matter before SM.
Cases of leaders misappropriating SY funds in India are rampant, there was a case in delhi where they wanted to buy collective land (again i do not know the specifics..would love to hear them though) The last straw on the camels back was SMs comment on the Gujrat earthquake victims.
The reason she gave was that there were too many false gurus in gujrat. Anyone who saw the devastation on TV, with children crying, whole families killed, millions rendered homeless would understand that this could not be the act of a benevolent god, least of all a caring, affectionate mother (ya devi sarva bhuteshu matri roopen samsthitha, namastasye namastasye nao namah). Oh by the way, the "false" gurus are all still living (and also exploiting ).
I have a lot more to share, but as they say- that is a new adventure, a new story to be told some other time. lots of love -satya
2402 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 1:38am Subject: Re: [SY] Miguel's Washi(ng)Machine
Hello Frank, I was there in December, 1987. I made only the half tour. So when I arrived at Washi (from Bombay) it was almost empty and I could afford to have a more detailed view of the precints. Ascetic is not the convenient word for describing it. A clinic-for-poor-people-of-a-poor country, is more likely. I was there and met the doctor, unctuous and eager to please, his russian feminine staff (to my eyes these ladies looked somewhat crashed in some hectic voluntarism) and some of the patients.
I don't know what happened to the patients after people from the Tour dashed in, with a minority of fanatics always eager to start chanting and dancing, and a bored and sick majority falling to the floor, or sitting all day long too tired to move. It surprised me then to see so many people looking so bored, morose and sad. Now I know why. As for me it was my exciting first international puja. So everything was brand new.
I strode through the gardens and it amazed me how poorly kept they were, with rachitic unnameable vegetation hardly growing, under India glorious blue sky, glowing with crow's wings.That doctor conducted the morning meditations,about 6 am. He had a most peculiar way of balancing his head and spine all the time during meditation. Though stillness is recommended in meditation, as he was the central authority,I was puzzled by it. Some people imitated his way of balancing head and spine...
Now (balancing) is something you do before and after meditation, but not all the time...There was something (peer pressure) that glued you to that spot. Most people remained there all day long. The reasons were "o the vibrations here are wonderful" and " we are family enjoying each others company".
Fortunately I met some daring SYs and we explored Washi, went to rides to Bombay by train, took the taboo rickshaws ( tabooed by Mataji), went to see some temples (also tabooed by Mataji) and had a little adventure being on our own, stalking the real country and a lot of fun and pleasure (giri) eating in real indian restaurants, instead of eating that cold sacred food, in military looking tin plates. (after dramatic one hour or more long queues).
I must also add that I lost some money (travel money of course). A gentle french SY yogini when she knew it handed me an equivalent sum. How generous and caring some SYs can be! I met some really great people there and wish them well. Best, Miguel de C.Henriques
From: "frank miller" <frankmil31@h...> Reply-To: email@example.com To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: [SY] Miguel's Washi(ng)Machine Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 13:41:29 -0000
So..you were there too, Miguel! Looks like it was not the same year, but it was the same place, no doubt! I also wondered why so many people were sick on the Tour, perhaps, a lack of hygiene, the food, the lack of facilities...I can't believe it was all a 'clear out' of chakras. The things we went through, thinking we were helping the whole world and helping our'ascent'! I also remember, as we walked in, when we arrived, there was a huge pile of CP's book against the wall.
We were asked to buy two or three copies each to take in our suitcases...one for us and the rest to give away or sell. I tried to read the book but found it full of Indian political intrigues, hardly relevant to Western countries! But we were dedicated and did it out of love for SM, who all the time, slowly but surely, followed her diabolical dream of ruling the world....power, more power, money, more money...we were just part of her sick plan.... Greetings 2403 From: Odysseus <balancedmind@y...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 2:39am Subject: Re: [SY] Miguel's Washi(ng)Machine
Hi Miguel and Frank, I have also made the stop over at Washi. That is one expensive place for patients! What amazed me was that people who had no apparent physical illness would check in for treatment. Many people become so obsessed with the search for vibrations or experiences that they will do anything for them. That includes throwing lots of money toward a treatment.
Sahaja yoga was all too willing help these desperate people part with their money. See ya later, Odysseus
2405 From: Odysseus <balancedmind@y...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 5:34am Subject: Re: To Odysseus with love....
Natalie, you sure know how to make a guy feel welcome! My story is likely not too different from everyone elses. I reached a point where I had given sahaja yoga my complete heart and didn't have anything real to show for it. Recently I read a message by Patrick about how he, after leaving sahaja yoga, remembered the reason why he fell in love with his wife in the first place. I kind of felt the same thing - I remembered and revisited all the things I used to like so much but didn't do while I was in sahaja yoga. It was the first time I think I understood what an identity crisis is! It was like learning all about myself again. It took a little while, but now I feel like myself again.
This list is a cool place to meet people who are going through the same thing. I'd like to hear about everyone elses stories too. Until later, 2406 From: barry.clay <barry.clay@n...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 10:42am Subject: Warm welcome Odysseus
Firstly a warm welcome to you Odysseus,I think that name is just great! keep the flow of your heart rendering thoughts heading towards these columns and you will surely help many others. The many memories of the Washi clinic from you all prompt me to add that I knew of a lovely old fellow called 'Cyril' (anyone remember him dear soul?) who once went there with another SY member from the Midlands collective, a fund was set up to send him there as he had much physical pain and problems in his life and it was considered that a visit to the clinic would be of benefit to him,however the effects of the long journey alone did him no good and although it was considered at the time that the visit had been beneficial to him,his health slowly deteriorated not long after and he passed away sadly not long after I left SY.
Many people who had been to the clinic apeared at first to benefit only to eventually go down hill shortly afterwards,I always suspected that the conditions were pretty awful out there and yet another ploy to gain more more money for SM, one thing that I understand was that you were told that even if you entered the clinic thinking you were not ill in any way you would be warned that you must realise that you had problems and surrender to Shri Mataji who had a list of all those present in the clinic at any given time so she would give them her vibrations and attentions.
We believed so much of these stories at the time only to find out later of there true worth,this constant fear of non conformity within Sahaja Yoga is now sickening to me and I now realise that it plays on the susceptibility of human nature to believe the apparent charismatic charms of a person of dubious credentials and of cunning behaviour.
It has been said on many occasions that SM is creating a new race of people,but to what end? the most puzzling thing to me is her constant appetite for more money despite her age, for what benefit is there to purchasing yet more chatels and property in the later years of her life except to enlarge her already massive estate? I believe that the real seekers of truth are you out there,if it had not been for the powers of the internet and of the means of mass electronic communication then we would have probably still been chained to the feet of Mataji,forearmed with the magic keyboard we can expose the truth and the true power of our love towards each other in helping our common cause and aims simply to not become the slaves to the unknown,sleep well my friends knowing your conscience is perfectly clear. Barry Clay.
2407 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 4:27pm Subject: Suffering and Redemption/Cloning
Reading Em's true remark on how staying in Sahaja was/is considered more difficult than walking away made me think about the following: First of all, having problems and enduring them is considered as a sign that'things are working out', that you are tested, and the higher the suffering, the higher you are 'progressing'( another expression subtly implying that you are no good to start with...)
Secondly, all religions and cults look upon suffering as redemption. To be cleansed and 'punished'in your body and soul is a necessary step. You are considered as a special person who does not mind any sacrifice. I remember as a child, going to confession, inventing sins and anxiously waiting for the priest to bless me and telling me how many prayers I had to recite to be forgiven by God...
Well, in Sahaja, you are the chosen ones, you don't confess, but you are saints in the making and you must endure exhausting and expensive India Tours, endless pujas and mantras,ask for forgiveness from God (SM)who might or might not give you her blessing( depending on her mood).Barry wonders why she wants so much money...My guess is that she has a secret master plan to clone 'her children'...lots of obedient yogis, praising her all over the world, being 'positive' from morning till evening, saying'it is meant to be', it is 'Her Will'... And for that, you need a whole network of castles, houses and hundreds of recruitment meetings and lots of expensive sarees.... Nathalie 2408 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 7:11pm Subject: Tapes/Fainting
People who still worship SM will probably faint when they read this.... I was so angry when I discovered that I had been deceived for years, that I threw away all her audio and video tapes(I had a fair amount...) I believe at the time it was a healthy reaction, helping me to cope with the grief and also I did not want anybody else poisoned with her mixed messages/confusing talks, so I felt the bin was the best place.
But, following Simon's remark about the tapes being evidence, I think people should hold on to them. She said several times that she was the one who would save humanity, she said that she was God. Perhaps put them in the loft or in the basement....
PS: Isn'it nice that people are now telling their stories, it is part of the healing process and we can all appreciate each other's experiences, being enriched by them. I still think that Simon has not forgiven me for calling him macho...perhaps I could knit him an extra blanket for his delicate knees(see previous posts)? Oooops : I have just remembered: I can't knit! How about a cyber hug?(all very proper)... Nathalie PS again: It is difficult to get rid of the anger...Advice would be welcome, any tip? 2409 From: emeltee54@y... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: Tapes/Fainting
Hi Nathalie I think you must have been writing this one just as I was looking back at some of your messages, wondering if you had actually said what had prompted you to leave SY. I know you've said before, and again just now, that you discovered that you had been deceived. I just wondered if any particular event had triggered it. Love from Em. 2410 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: [SY] Re: Tapes/Fainting
Hello Em! Good question! My wake-up call came when, quite new to the web, I was 'surfing' the Internet, eagerly typed in 'sahaja yoga', went on the sahaja-yoga.org site, thinking it was THE site, and discovered the whole thing! For that, I will be eternally grateful to those who had the courage to start it! I think seeing the photo where SM is sitting so close to Rajneesh triggered something in me.
I felt physically sick, something about the way she seemed to be part of his inner circle, then all the hard financial facts, hidden from the majority of Sahaja Yogis, and of course all the uncomfortable situations I had experienced over the years, the nagging doubts which I kept pushing at the back of my mind. And then reading all the testimonies of the list, confirming my uneasiness and my worst doubts.
It took a while to sink it. My loyalty to SM kept denying it, but something in me said, look around you: so many people have been hurt...and my own health declining(but I am now fighting back, and I am starting to feel better). My self trust is slowly coming back...but it is hard when the most sacred bond of Mother and Child has been used that way. Never again will I let anybody control my heart and soul! Thanks EM! Nathalie 2411 From: alex.green@a... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 9:14pm Subject: My wandering mind
Hi. Great to see the recent injection of vitality into the discussion! Luv all the hugs and stuff - thanks new girls! I used to be devoted to Mrs Srivastiva and her Sahaja Yoga. I am now devoted to the truth. To the degree that she and SY embody the truth I remain devoted to them (ie not). However, it took me some time to realise that truth and Mrs S are often very much divergent. Realising this allows a previously "committed" SY to develop some detachment to observe what's happening in SY. It seems to be such a fascinating mixture of light and darkness.
Supposing she is the adi shakti...In allowing myself to be neither a believer or disbeliever in her, it would seem it makes little difference whether she is a divine incarnation not. Like most people who have adhered to SY, I experienced and enjoyed what was very much a liberation of sorts. However, I suppose that given the highly questionable activities within SY, for which Mrs S must be in some way held responsible, I have come to a point of seeing that the one who liberates is often simultaneously the one one who confines or "imprisons".
Two sides of the one coin - just depends on one's point of view. (Writing this, I find myself feeling like Little Red Riding Hood, pointing at the grotesque and saying "my grandma, what BIG teeth you have!".) I've come to the understanding if Mrs S were indeed the adi shakti she would not be a stakeholder in the "play" of Sahaja Yoga. Indeed, she and SY seem simultaneiously to contain expressions of great light and darkness both of which manifest very much in and through her devotees.
The adi shakti would be an expression of totality, neither light nor dark yet containing both. What we find in SY is consistent with this. One of the greatest expressions of darkness is attachment and the worst form of attachment is attachment to darkness itself. Her devotees are, without question, blindly attached to her, like infants to their mother.She may indeed be the adi shakti, but that doesn't mean she isn't setting a big trap for the unwitting - her blind devotees. Mother knows best!
Of course, she could be not the adi shakti and do exactly the same thing. What a dilemma.Just a thought (damn proud to be thinking again!) Alex
2412 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 9:54pm Subject: Washi(ng) Machine
Welcome to you Barry, hope you'll carry on being alive and kicking! Due to a problem with the server it's only now that I'm reading yours, Nathalie's, Emelete's and Odysseus' refreshing messages. I just remembered the name of the unctuous doctor, the petty tyrant guru of the Washi(ng) Machine: Rao was his name. Hope I'll remember the title of his book. One was supposed to buy it, as it was in some way the scientific seal of approval over SY.
As you remember SY's claims about being able to cure almost all diseases (I don't remind leper being mentioned) were a significant "part and parcel" (remember these 2 words together?) of SYs emergence as a fully equipped new saviour religion. The Washi clinic, then, appears as a necessary corollary of these claims. It had to work, absolutely, and be a factory of chain-miracles.
It's said officially,that Mataji once was a medical student (how far did she proceed one, two, three or more years...was not disclosed) and she had to leave due to economical/political reasons. I wonder why she did not conclude later on her studies? Any person with a strong intent on concluding his/her studies is able to do it, why not her, the Supreme Godess?
I mention this point also because her first appearances on the guru scene were as a healer, like "curandero", not as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. Only later she evolved to guru status, and then went on her way to become some Incarnation, and finally the Incarnation of Incarnations. I just mention this because it is a step by step process and progress, from frustrated medical student (and apparently sucessful political young student political leader and political martyr - I still have to check if that's true, or nothing but one more typical pink version of the young years of the Mighty Leader) to supreme Doctor of Doctors.
Anyway what matters is the "healing" quality with which she presented herself. She can be fairly included in the band-width of every new- ageism, all promising perfect health, physical, mental and spiritual. The Washi(ng) Machine is a most important piece in her power-greedy chessboard. It had to function perfectly... it had to be excellence on earth, a model for all clinics of the "future race"...but the plain truth is that it seems a charlatan's petty trick, unable to cure whatever disease.
As I said before if Washi worked there would be 0ne, two, three... "n" Washis by now, all overcrowded with SY's and non SYs patients. Now dr. Rao in the current "purges" going on in this SY's "year of exposure" is out. The technique of finding scape-goats, no doubt, is finely applied by SY's nomenklatura. Did one of the terrible russian ladies became his sucessor? Best wishes, Miguel de C.Henriques
2413 From: quasarx@u... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 10:21pm Subject: Can't join the group for a while .. am blocked @ work
its a good exercise i suppose 2 read, listen & stand back. unfortunatelly @ work they have strict policies against many things webby-wise .. and they daily blocking sites, keywords, etc. yahoo! groups was banned aeons ago - now they banned anything that contains the word "webmail" .. so can't access my sahaja-group- emails no more. ok long explanation of why i cant join the mailing list but from a cyber-café.
~~ But now 4 some real issues ~~ First it saddens me 2 hear that Cyril passed away. He was a wonderful character, I think every1 loved the guy. He was very old however, so its difficult to say - oh it was because of Washi. Having said that .. I have heard & seen ppl goin there, coming back worse.
I hated Washi, cos it was giving me nightmares. But then i suppose i was clearin out? hehe .. A number of yogis agreed that the vibrations there was awful.I dunno what kind of yogis ppl hanged around with, cos me friends they were pretty honest. India-Tour? 'Oh man, that was really bad this year, the vibes were pretty foul, shud have stayed home'
I'm still sittin in the fence .. but looks like the credibility of SY and SM is begin to worsen daily. What kept my faith - was the undeniable experiences I had. I'm not one into theorizin everythin but am sure that even our unconscious in blind faith makes anythin happen. I am sure other religion/cults/whatever .. members, ex- members have mind-blowin experieces .. manifestin @ a physical level (possibly scientifically proven).
Its what is OBVIOUS that should be the key to tell the truth from falsehood. SA-AKSHAT .. ie before everyone's eye. So before everyone's eyes .. we have bad bad things. SM promised of better health, ok u glow in the beggining, but u become more weakling & vulnerable. SM promised of joy, peace, contentment - I had those but didnt last for long .. Sometimes I suffer like most in life but in SY the sufferin could have been way much greater intensified. I just dont know ....
I took in a lot of what SM preached. Wether she practices it or not - its another thing. Some of it helped me a lot. This sounds almost offensive, specially to the people that suffered loads intensively - and i do feel for them (the fear, the guilt, the paranoia, the panic- attacks) ...... but if I had to live this life again, I'd write down on my lil destiny tablet - that I would come to Sahaja Yoga. Only thing I regret is that I havent left earlier. 5 years would be ok - not 9 years.
Someone in this forum said - religion makes good people better, bad people worse. Well, im not gonna show off sayin Im good - cos Im not perfect (loads of not-good things in me which I hope one day goes away) but in my naivity I did grow (or feel Ive grown) whilst in SY. Another thing, once you join SY - its very unlikely you will join another cult. And if it had to be a cult, SY would do. .. "Better the devil, you know"
With SY - I discovered cultures. With SY - I had spiritual experiences (illusory or not) With SY - I visited other countries and met a lot of wonderful people .. never mind the weird sad ones [I'm not defendin SY here, and OK u can get that with anyother religion, am just stating]
With SY - I became very artistic, renaissance- like, learnt music .. I mean maybe many ppl disagree but the songs in Sahaja Yoga - they were pretty mind blowin - indian songs and melodies [not the western crappy stuff. Someone gave me that CD - Blossom Time .. haHahaHA !!!!]So I learnt, I've grown, and ok mid-way started to fall.Me and my mother we had lil arguments - not fiery tho - bout SM and SY. She couldnt accept a person like SM was the Adi Shakti. She saw that while in SY, I kinda became better, more relaxed and at peace ..... then one day I said to my mother "Look, its ok, no need for us to discuss - We will find out is SM and SY are true. Time will tell. So Im not bothered anymore" And this is what I think its happening here.
SY that judged so many people: "SINNER SINNER - Ekadesha Rudra will pulverize u!!!" .. is being judged. SM is being judged. Time will tell. But a feeling is - looks like it was an illusion after all. Aren't illusions great? Only illusions can make someone go really high really fast (but then the fall .. yeah i keep forgettin that part)I dont regret at all my life in SY, even not being the truth. Cos I got many things from it, I did learn & grown and after leaving learnt more & grown again (specially on how not to be so quaint and disrespectful to outsiders)
Last thing - Nathalie...I know its hard to forgive. I know this sounds cliché .. but even though u felt cheated and got muchbad experiences and suffering. Think of it as an experience. Which you are much wiser for it. Are you gonna run to another guru? Or another cult? I'm sure you also had some good experiences in SY. And met some wonderful people. And learnt or acquired few things. I see it as an experience. Luckily in my case it wasnt all soul-destroying. I dont hate SY, nor do I love it.I feel slightly embarrased something i believed so firmly is turning out to be so shoddy, so crass, so stupid.I feel bad, a "master" who I loved so much, is being exposed like that.
But the truth will shine. And things *should* told and exposed. But instead of hating it - I'll just ignore it and let go .. slightly disappointed. ** Nathalie, if you hate something ,that thing is still affecting/destroying u .. not-to-hate is to win. Im sure in time, the anger, pain and frustration will fade. You are alive, hopefully well, and so very free! **~~ Ok I wrote way too much 4 2day ~~ every1 keep postin & encourage every1 to join members or ex- members alike ~~~~ you who is reading this. we need your thoughts and experiences too!! ~~~~ b g00d take care ~ Quasar ~ 2415 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 1:44am Subject: Re: [SY] My wandering mind
Hello Alex, Where does come the idea that the Adi-Shakti is "a mother"? I could not see it in the traditional sacred books of India, The Vedas, the Shastras, and so on. To consider the Adi-Shakti "a mother" I think it's a christianized concept. The emergence of several matajis (feminine counterpart of babajis, baba meaning father, and ji an endearing diminutive ) occurs in the late XIX century, and of course carries its momentum until "our" mataji. This title - Mataji - corresponds to a relatively new acquisition for the vast, baroque and immense indian pantheón.
Then there's some forced equivalence between adi-shakti and mataji. One can be a mataji (a motherly being, one quality shared by tibetan lamas) without being an Adi-Shakti. There were several matajis in the late XIX century, and there are some matajis now. The only one claiming that she's both Mataji and adi-shakti is "our" mataji.
Knowing her greed, her pathological need of accumulation of titles, names and material goods that is not a surprise.You speak about "sort of liberations" SY induced in you. What sort of? You hit the target when you refer to the one who liberates as the one who imprisons you. This is the crucial point. SY gives you the sky but erases your wings. Or perhaps SY gives you wings but erases the sky.
As psycholgists know this is a "double-bind" situation. With one hand I caress you and later and at the same time with the other hand I hit you. This is the current practice in SY. First you're spetial, "A Saint", "A realized being", "A citizen of the Kingdom of God", very soon - if not offered in the same parcel -
You're "bhootish", "possessed", "with catches", etc. This creates a divided mind. This split mind (believing itself self-realized and full of catches at the same time)battles against itself and this constitutes schizofrenia, at least some form of schizoid traits. It's ironic that an organisation who speaks of a holistic being as its ideal can't but induce the advent of fragmented beings, double-binded people.
Recovery from a cult is not a matter of days. 2 and a half years after quitting I'm still recovering. Though it's true that just after leaving you start to find a true fresh space to move on, the space of your real Self, your own healing Self. Which allows you the use of your intellect and is adverse to the mass-suicide of thinking. Greetings, Miguel de C.Henriques 2417 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 2:35am Subject: A few thoughts on some questions and more fire and water
Ganapatipule, Dec 1997 (fragment from diary) two tragic events in the land of Ganesha. The red earth of Ganapatipule witnessed the drowning of a young girl in its calm shore. Everybody was shocked. How come under the attention of Mataji could one possibly drown? Mataji in her Puja discourse blamed vehemently her parents. A big fire started on the roof of the assembly hall 2 days before the marriage ceremonies. Flames propagated to the Pendall and burned it down.
Many people lost their suitcases and sleeping bags. We were told by some leaders not to mention this incident in our countries. Fire in the land of Ganesha? People were asking themselves how can this happen in the land of Ganesha? Well it seems that a simple short- circuit is more powerful than Ganesha's benevolence. Or was Ganesha kicking out her fake mother show?
Many people worked day and night and managed to install a new roof over the Assembly hall. Where, after the marriages (arranged on the spot, over the knee, by some yawning leaders - though the married couples thought that Mataji herself supervised the whole procedures), Mataji would throw rupees (collected from who?) to the musicians. Water, fire, music and a young corpse asking why. Miguel de C.Henriques 2418 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 3:24am Subject: To Quasar
Your advice is very precious to me, Quasar: you are right : I must let go of the anger, otherwise it means she wins. It might take a bit of time, but I am working on it. I must remember the good moments, and understand that I am, in some ways, stronger. It is a shame you cannot use the computer at work, but keep posting at week-ends anyway. By the way, I was on a site where they talked about universes and stars, and your name came up: does Quasar mean 'galaxy'? Love and Regards Nathalie 2420 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 3:35am Subject: To Alex and Anthony
Thanks to Alex for complementing the girls, we are flattered... I feel a wandering mind is what SM wants, as Miguel says , a divided mind, so that we 'surrender'. But perhaps you are right to observe and wait for the unfolding of the plot.... Thanks to Anthony for frightening us re another cult, it is an eye-opener, we need it. Perhaps one day, all those who have been exploited in Sahaja will also get together and fight a legal battle. But a lot of us are still under her spell, and others are in the recovery process... Love Nathalie
2428 From: alex.green@a... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 6:34pm Subject: Medical research in Australia
Word has it we can very soon expect publication in a medical journal of research by one Dr Ramesh Manocha, a committed (some would say fanatical) devotee of Mataji and Sahaja Yoga. I understand he has achieved favorable (ie pro-SY) results in his research into the use of SY as therapy for various ailments. This should go a long way to establishing mainstream credibility for SY and it's goddess Dr Mataji. I'm told he already has interviews cued up with major national TV in Australia to trumpet his findings.
Will Manocha be open about the fact the he has been funded to the tune of approx AU$70K through the Sydney Royal Women's Hospital, where he works, who would no doubt be expecting his research to be objective and unbiased? (oh dear!)
Will Manocha volunteer in his presentations of his findings that he and his SY colleagues worship the feet of Mataji (or a photograph of them), including washing them and decorating them with flowers and red pigment, and that this is the real culture of SY to which he so avidly trying to attract newcomers?
If the deception and withholding of information continues, I'm sure it's all for the best possible cause (which makes it OK).Oh what a wicked web we weave, doctor!Yours in undifferentiated bliss Alex
2430 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 6:59pm Subject: To Barry
Barry, I really enjoy your late night messages, which sum up very well the topics discussed here, and how we all feel about the open-hearted exchange unfolding under our very eyes!(have you got anything in mind when you say there is a pattern emerging? I am intrigued...)
As I read your latest message, I tried to go back in time and realised that SM's plan is a cold and calculated move: get some drug addicts to start with, some lost hippies(my heart goes out to them), rescue them (a lot of main stream religions do the me: they 'save 'drug addicts, 'save' homosexuals'etc... etc...):they will be loyal for ever, having seen 'the light', their lives improve to start with.
Then get some doctors to ive a respectable front to the organisation, then get some builders, so that they are cheap labour.Buy lots of property with the money of the disciples and then go into politics and Bob is your Uncle! The subject of photos is a massive topic: some are fake, some are real(there might be such a thing as a Kundalini energy and it shows on photos), may be it is a neutral energy , and it can be used for good or for evil??? Love Nathalie 2431 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 7:16pm Subject: To Jason
Jason, your comments have encouraged me to think that my anger is reasonably normal and I am reassured: you seem to have gone through the same grieving process. I must hold on to the fact that the anger is a temporary one. Did you do a therapy or are you a therapist? Could you tell us more about your book on Sahaja:did you do it for yourself only or did it get published? I am sure it would help a lot of us to try and focus on the good times and see the positive in anotherwise painful experience!
You also sound as if you had a spectacular exit! Love Nathalie PS: I am aware that I am sending an awful lot of messages to the list, and I suddenly feel quite embarassed about it, but I need it very much at the moment! Get a life I hear you say!
2432 From: frank miller <frankmil31@h...> Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 11:37pm Subject: Groups
I was reading an article about groups(self-support groups) and these are the criteria they gave, before choosing one... ********************* Can each person speak and really be listened to often enough to feel an integral part of the group?
Do you look forward to meetings as something for you, not just one more obligation?
Can you be honest inside it(be angry, vulnerable for ex)?
Does the group honour the departure of old members? Do you feel accepted as you are?
Does being part of the group lead you to independent action outside it? *************************** Talk about being dysfunctional...I think sahaja is the most dysfunctional group there is! Regards Frank 2434 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 5:57am Subject: Re: [SY] To Miguel the author
Dear Nathalie, Thanks for your kindness but in this list I'm just an ordinary ex- member, battling to retrieve his soul. Anyway to answer your question one of my books has been translated from portuguese into italian. A young Irish writer wants to translate another one from portuguese into english.
I don't really know when fiction ends and non-fiction starts. For instance during the forties, I suppose, Colin Wilson wrote a great book, inspired by the mad genius Lovecraft, called The Mind Parasites. Today Meme's theory (it studies Mind virus) validates the fundamentalpremises of this book as non-fiction. Also if some years ago somebody described in a book that dr.godess followers were supposed to drink, ecstatically, the water wash of her feet, I'd say that's fiction!
Dr.Godess, who's quite illiterate by the way, did not really forbid to read books. She disowned books' importance, saying that they were "frown frown" for "intellectuals". She recommended heavy nationalists and moralists like Kipling, and in my opinion total bores as Kahil Gilbrain and Agatha Christie. There was a list of recommended SY-safe books. Quite short, by the way. (I agree with one of her choices, though, William Blake).
I'm glad you followed your rebellious inner voice and carried on reading! Books will remain one of the best tools against tyrants. And they know it, that's why Hitler made autos-de-fé with books. And Ferdinand Marcos, and all dictators and totalitarian systems forbid them. You're right. Perhaps I'm a bit hard with myself. But I should have known better! Before SY I was a Yoga practionner (well I practiced Hatha, Raja,Mantra, and Tibetan TantraYoga (had initiations).
I Joined SY to experience more fully the chakra system. I was also practicing Zazen. One of my masters (Hashimoto Roshi) said " One must study all goods dharmas". At first sight SY appeared as a "good dharma" so I decided to study it fully and became fully involved. (I don't like to do things half-way, or just take a little taste of it and pretend that I know the whole thing).
There was a period during which I sincerely believed Mataji was a real master (I never considered her to be The Godess). In a weird way I was right... she was a real master manipulator. Twisting a delicate instrument, "the subtle system", to fit her objectives.
(as a footnote) As I wrote this last line I felt an upsurge of good Kundalini energy. I Carry on practicing zazen meditation, aikido and lately begun to practice Tai-Chi. We all perhaps learned the hard way a lesson : never trust gurus, not even gurus antigurus... Yeah, tis nice to be normal, a regular sentient being, nothing spetial..free to roam and run a mile from puja worms, and eat french cheese... The undignified evercurious mouse, Miguel de C.Henriques 2436 From: barry.clay <barry.clay@n...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 7:08am Subject: Mataji and meat eating
One of the things that puzzled many Sahaja Yogis/Yoginis was the her attitude towards the eating of meat,a lot of cults ban meat eating but Shri Mataji I am told did in fact eat meat herself and despite what we are told ate considerable amounts of food.
She also said some very strange things about the Mad Cows disease asking us what all the fuss about! the questions about the general consumption of meat in SY have not been talked about much so perhaps someone out there can enlighten us as to her policies on this? Barry Clay.(meat eater) 2437 From: barry.clay <barry.clay@n...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 7:31am Subject: When is a SY meeting not a SY meeting?
When I was in SY I was approached about taking some meetings at a different venue during the day,I postered,booked a hall at my own expense and eventually after a few weeks got a nice little meditation class going,the local leader came along for a couple of weeks but eventually stopped coming ,during this period for what reasons I cannot remember I did not attend the local collective meetings but carried on with my own weekly sessions,much to my surprise I was then asked to stop the meetings full stop which came as a surprise and I questioned why?
The leader said that because I had not attended the local collective for a few weeks the meetings were void and were not Sahaja Yoga! Iwas amazed and disappointed at this attitude as a nice little class was developing,so the question that I ask is when does a SY meeting cease to be a SY meeting,did my little additional class not count or was there some jealousy creeping in as to its success? I encountered many strange things such as this in SY it was just as if you were being stopped from stepping outside some protocol whether on a mere local or national level.
I remember also that DL requested that all activities that peoiple wanted to do for SY be reported to him before going ahead following a stand being set up at one of those mind and body shows which had been set up without his permission. On the other hand I was also told at one point that anyone could start a meeting as it was not the domain of any one person,such contradictions of policy seem to add further elitist attitudes in an organisation said to be soo... pure. Barry Clay. 2438 From: barry.clay <barry.clay@n...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 8:10am Subject: Sahaja Yoga-full circle?
Nathalie asks about my comments on a pattern emerging in SY,well as we all know a big thing was always made about the age of darkness (was it Kali Yuga?) and the fact that nobody could hide behind its shadows and all evil would be exposed,I did believe that one day those that had cheated mankind whether it be politicians,crimes to humanity etc would indeed be exposed,I am sure that many of my colleagus also thought this made good sense at the time but never associated it with Sahaja Yoga itself and its decline.
Some months ago this group went very quiet and some sarcastic comments came through from those still serving SM ,it was just like the lull before the storm as the group gained momentum as witnessed of late and further horror storires exposed of peoples experiences in SY,so what was once the prophesy spoken about so much in Sahaja Yoga has now turned full circle and the ability to hide the truth has failed them,they can no longer hide behind the shadows of deceit and corruption that we have all witnessed first hand. Barry Clay. 2439 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [SY] Mataji and meat eating
Hello Barry, I for one enjoy your well informed and structured messages. And yes, Mataji eats meat. When she was staying here in Portugal at Seteais Palace ( one of our most luxurious hotels, once a royal palace) all the S.yoginis and yogis were in a constant turmoil with cooking matters.
Special food, difficult to find in market-places and supermarkets,was requested. For instance Lamb chops. Seems trivial, is'nt it?. But the Lamb chops had perforce to be from England. She only ate Lamb chops from England, said with firm finality one of the top-dogs. I don't know how,one daring portuguese S.yogi managed to find,after hours of search,some English lamb chops. He had to phone the british embassy, where the cook was not available, then the consulate (same story), etc.
During her stay, once,by mistake,I entered her salon rose (Seteais has a mixture of romantic and rococo style). She was ferociously eating a lunch consisting of ten main dishes at least (and several dessert dishes). No wine,that's true. Well,to enjoy food that's allright for me, I've got gargantuan and gourmet friends and it's up to everyone to eat to their heart's desire.
But they delight in food and don't trumpet proclamations to the world at large chanting the virtues of fasting and eating only plain boiled potatoes. And they like to share. I remembered mataji words -"you should be satisfied with a plain boiled potato." And I remembered, not far away from Seteais, people, wrapped in blankets, queueing to get a cold dish, with a meagre portion.
There she was eating like a sultan, alone, voraciously, at 3 o clock pm, inside a cozy, warm salon. I was lunch at 3 o'clock because just like many other times she had been sleeping all morning, she who advised people to wake up early. All right, there was always an excuse. She slept badly because she took some coffee. Coffee was a no- no stuff (Terrible for the liver). Then another excuse "She drank coffee because she had diarrhoea". Next day she woke up very late again and the excuse was "she had a toothache."
I went to many international pujas and every time Mrs.Srivastava waked up late, there was some excuse "Oh she stayed late at night with guests", and of course there was a turmoil in the kitchen... I entered Cabella kitchen several times and there was always a frantic, and frankly paranoid turmoil, with Indian S.yoginis top- dogging catching westerners...and no vibes, descending from the sacred sleeping room, except the big brother vibe that whatever you're doing is probably something wrong...at least that was my impression of these poor, voluntarily enslaved ladies, still learning to walk inside a somewhat always twisted or falling saree...
But b'Gad! the plain, unadorned truth is that she eats loads and loads and has to sleep it over! Bulimia is another trait of the psychopath, who is ruthless, cunning, patient and sweet. Well may you ejoy your meat whether it be canned, raw, bleue, cold or boiling! And if we were antropophags I'd tell you where to find a groovy tasty mama. Cheers, from the unpalatable delicious Shri Ice Devatta Cream
2441 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 10:03am Subject: Re: [SY] When is a SY meeting not a SY meeting?(Barry)
That's control, Barry. Plain mind control from the hierarchy. The hierarchy is Her. The rank and file only has to obbey. Are they taking intelligent initiatives? Dangerous. Dangerous. They might overturn Us.Only the Hierarchy knows what is SY and what's not. When it suits Us your actions are SY, when it does'nt, even if they are the same actions that pleased Us, they are not SY. Nail this in your heart chakra. Learn to be an obedient convenient schizoid. Thank you. May God bless ya. Have you given ten pounds for the silver chandelier? Youre catching. Shri Boiling Chakravartin Eat-meater-meeting 2442 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 10:16am Subject: Re: [SY] Sahaja Yoga-full circle?
Well Barry, you know that some of the Hierarchs were sure, and so they told Mrs.Godess, that we were being paid by the Catholic Church or by some rabid anticult organisation?
But we're all independent franc-tireurs, mes chers messieurs! No organisation, no moralisitc master manipulator fuhrer-guru, no dollars, yeah no shri shree dollars, just diamond minds and pure hearts, that's why this forum works. Amen 2443 From: Jason T. Copeland <anandamurti@u...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: [SY] Medical research in Australia
In the matter of Ramesh's research, alex.green@a... wrote:
A: Word has it we can very soon expect publication in a medical journal of research by one Dr Ramesh Manocha, a committed (some would say fanatical) devotee of Mataji and Sahaja Yoga. I'm told he already has interviews cued up with major national TV in Australia to trumpet his findings.
Jason: Publicity is already under way. There was an article in the Brisbane (Australia) Sunday Mail on 1st July, in the Life pull-out section. News Ltd does have a website at news.com.au/ - I didn't do a thorough exploration, but they may have it there. Yours etc. Jason
2444 From: Jason T. Copeland <anandamurti@u...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: [SY] To Jason
I "did" therapy, in the sense that I went to therapy sessions with a psychologist, for several years, dealing both with childhood trauma and with the complex of motives that went into making me a seeker and a naive one. I have also done a lot of reading in psychology and spirituality and the common boundary of those intertwined fields, and some therapeutic training. I will do some more as part of my degree studies.
N: Could you tell us more about your book on Sahaja:did you do it for yourself only or did it get published? I am sure it would help a lot of us to try and focus on the good times and see the positive in anotherwise painful experience!
Jason: Well, originally I started writing it to make sense of the whole thing for my own understanding, and it sort of took the form of a 200,000-word introductory talk, as it were, on SY. I did try to get it published, but no go so far, except for a brief stay on a book- publishing website which is now defunct. But, I guess I could try to email it in attached file format to anyone who wants to have a look - bearing in mind that my perspective now is somewhat different!
I also did a much shorter presentation on Mrs. Srivastava and SY at university (I'm reading for an MA in Religion) which helped me clarify my ideas too. If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to email them to individuals - not to the group as a mass mailing, they'd probably jam up the email servers if I did that.
N: You also sound as if you had a spectacular exit!
Jason: I had a wife who was an absolute fanatic, and she used to go absolutely crazy - screaming at me, walking out for weeks on end - if I so much as indicated that it is possible to think differently from her on some issues. Eventually, she accused me (wrongly, at the time) of having an affair, and walked out for good. I breathed a sigh of relief, and then went ahead and had the affair. In the end, it didn't last, but the local group became very judgemental about me, took my ex-wife's side, and really stayed that way. And in due course, the immoveability of their judgementality was a large element in killing off my dream of SY as the ultimate healing trip. 2445 From: emeltee54@y... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 6:30pm Subject: Re: meat eating
As I recall, Shri Mataji's advice regarding meat was that you should only eat the meat of animals that are smaller than you. The reason had something to do with the larger fibres (eg. from beef) being hard on the gums, (and not easily digested..??).
** Didn't hear of any comments made re mad cow disease, but maybe it was to do with the belief that humans shouldn't eat beef anyway. I shouldn't really comment on this, though, as I don't know.
The main thing in SY with any food, is/was that it should relate to balancing your subtle system, ie. if you are right-sided, eat less protein and more carbohydrates, and vice versa if you are left- sided. Of course, as with most things in SY, it is a lot more complex than that, but this is just an example.
I also remember being told that wherever Shri Mataji was, her diet often reflected what the local collective needed for clearing imbalances or problems. I believed it at the time… Em (Eats Meat - including the occasional steak with mushroom sauce!)
2446 From: frank miller <frankmil31@h...> Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 7:51pm Subject: Re: Meetings and Leaders
I think Miguel is spot on when he talks about leaders. In particular local leaders should not be too intelligent. As Barry said also, if they have too many good ideas and take too many initiatives, they are a threat to the whole system which runs from the top down: the controlled information, the secret money matters, or even ways of presenting sahaj:
everything is censored by the national leader, who , himself, is a puppet in the hands of SM. Are the national leaders totally naive, totally corrupt or totally brainwashed? Frank 2448 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 0:35am Subject: Re:Meat ,cows and servants...
Barry mentionned the topic of meat. All I know is that SM loves it, in particular the juices(blood..)I once cooked for her and she insisted we should save them carefully for her. Yes, the Mahakali is fond of blood and little children...(let's not go there!). Didn't she mention once that the feed given to cows was bad for them and consequently for human beings?(anybody switching on the radio would know that!
Hardly a revelation)... Miguel talked about HHSM's personal habits: as ladies serving her, we had to do ALL of her laundry by hand and also her daughters's etc... I felt vaguely uncomfortable about it at the time, but then I was lost in the devotion and regarded myself as particularly blessed...Perhaps more stories like these will emerge: The Goddess on stage versus Mrs S in the everyday life. She is obviously used to shouting at servants running around for her. And that is what Sahaja Yogis are:her servants:builders, cooks, drivers,and lots of accountants...
She did give us some presents: her used handbags, old sarees etc...I cherished them for years, but guess where they went recently? In the bin, with her tapes...
To EM: your steak with mushroom sauce appeals to me...I haven't had any for years, but I might join you very soon! Miguel's steak au poivre is a strong contestant though...
To Miguel: yes, rushing around in a falling saree is hell! 2449 From: nathalie doe <nathaliedoe@h...> Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 0:37am Subject: Spiritual Life after SY?
Thanks to Jason for his invaluable, life-giving comments. Very brave of him to put up with a fanatical wife and a non-supportive 'local collective'(most of them are artificial and non-supportive). Good for him to have moved on, but it does sound as if it is a slow and time consuming process. A lot of people on the list have taken quite a bit of time to find their balance again. Miguel mentions he now does ZaZen, aikido and Tai Chi. At the moment I find the sheer pleasure of going for brisk walks and no more foot soak, absolute bliss! It would be nice to hear more stories of spiritual life after SY! Nathalie
2450 From: Miguel Henriques <migcah@h...> Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:18am Subject: RE: [SY] keep an open mind, Simon! (to Quasarx)
Dear Quasarx, I appreciate the way you formulate your honest doubts. Leaving a cult it's no easy matter, it is a real battle, no doubt. Investments , emotional, spiritual, etc, have been made. A whole frame of mind, which at a given time seemed new and promising, now hangs over us. Somethings still seemto have value, some insights, techniques, sayings... but then there's the obvious plain psychopatological everyday life of the Messenger coming into ligth, in sharp contrast with the Message.
The shouting Mrs Srivastava, keen on having servants/slaves for herself and family cuts a poor figure as the human guru (and godess) we idealized, or were led by the nose to idealize. More and more people will come and tell revealing details about the everyday life of a too demanding, authoritarian psychopath, profiteering from people's sincere devotion.
And giving them back, as brave Nathalie said, her secondhand bags and sarees. That's the common behaviour pattern of all rich patron ladies all over the world: throw the crumbs to your servants.(and your secondhand goods). We could coin a new proverb : know you guru's kitchen, you'll know him/her. So it was displayed that she likes gravies with blood. Hmmmm. The excuse will be, I'm sure, "she's bloodthirsty Mother Kali eating her mahadeva diet of bhoots and devils incarnated as animals".
The incarnation concept has been an umbrella under which the Incarnation reveals him/herself as a common psychopath/dictator. They add "Incarnations behave in weird ways", so they make take your wife or your husband or rape/infect the mind of your children with submissive patterns.I'll try to reply later to your questions. Miguel de C.Henriques